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Re: bell wreath buzzing + new word
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:20 pm
by The Big Ben
bloke wrote: I would guess that (at least sometimes) bells that "buzz" do so because little nasty bits of corroded steel are dancing around in the hollow of the nickel silver rim, and not necessarily because the nickel silver sheet metal wreath is buzzing against the brass bell flare.
Really involved but...
Take the wreath off, clean out the buzzing detrius and solder it back together again.
Or...
Inject "something" into where the wire is supposed to be to immoblize the detrius.
#1 might be more successful than #2
Re: bell wreath buzzing + new word
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:26 am
by The Big Ben
bloke wrote:The Big Ben wrote:Really involved but...
Take the wreath off, clean out the buzzing detrius and solder it back together again.
I would compare this to removing (and then successfully putting back) the "skin" of a car door.
The Big Ben wrote:Or...
Inject "something" into where the wire is supposed to be to immoblize the detrius.
drill holes...!?!
Maybe a series of very, very small ones - 1/32" or so- and some very thinned epoxy. Not really sure if that would be successful but the idea just sprung into my head...
Doesn't the wreath need to come off to fix one of those school 186s that have been set down hard on its' bell about a hundred too many times?
Re: bell wreath buzzing + new word
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:10 am
by The Big Ben
bloke wrote:The Big Ben wrote:Doesn't the wreath need to come off to fix one of those school 186s that have been set down hard on its' bell about a hundred too many times?
For the first time ever, I'm playing around with removing a wreath and reinstalling it. I don't know how successful it will be...It looks promising. It will have involved quite a bit of time ($$$) - more (possibly) than some schools would want to pay.
(I'm doing it as a "learning experience". Now in my early 50's, I'm messing around with just a few things - even in my profession - that are not directly related to increasing the rate of my monthly income. ...As you may recall from an old thread, I'm the one who is completely uncomfortable - at least for myself - with the concept of "hobbies".)
Good luck and have some fun with it...
It's hard to remember that for guys like you, not only must a repair be possible, it must be profitable, too..
I've only seen the pictures on Dan O's site showing that job being done. Seeing and doing are two different things..
Re: bell wreath buzzing + new word
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:06 am
by Mike-ICR
I have NO idea how to REPAIR a wreath with that problem. As for REPLACEMENT, there must be an Asian copy of a similar horn. Maybe you can find an after market (Chinese) replacement.
Re: bell wreath buzzing + new word
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:52 pm
by bisontuba
HI-
I know that on some older horns that have rims that 'buzz' due to cracks, Bob Pallansch years ago told me to take a dry keg of soap, rub it into the area, and the buzz should stop. I've done it, and it works. If that area ever gets wet, just redo it--under a dollar fix.
Regards-
mark
jonestuba@juno.com" target="_blank
Re: bell wreath buzzing + new word
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:01 pm
by oedipoes
bloke wrote:The Big Ben wrote:Doesn't the wreath need to come off to fix one of those school 186s that have been set down hard on its' bell about a hundred too many times?
For the first time ever, I'm playing around with removing a wreath and reinstalling it. I don't know how successful it will be...It looks promising. It will have involved quite a bit of time ($$$) - more (possibly) than some schools would want to pay.
(I'm doing it as a "learning experience". Now in my early 50's, I'm messing around with just a few things - even in my profession - that are not directly related to increasing the rate of my monthly income. ...As you may recall from an old thread, I'm the one who is completely uncomfortable - at least for myself - with the concept of "hobbies".)
Dan Oberloh (when he has picked up old Mira
fone 186 tubas that are all messed up (but
not cracked) talked here about purchasing brand-new wreaths from Miraphone and installing them on old bells. That was several years ago. Assuming (with shipping/duty) they're going to hit him up for the same amount they quoted me (about $300), I would wonder how excited he might be in following through with that routine in 2009.
It is quite possible to repair badly-damaged (no cracks) bells with the wreath in place and bring them to an AAA (compared to original AAAAA) appearance. It takes some messing around to make them look good, and there are limits. Often, the engraving and the solder line on the wreath will "print through" a bit to the brass bell. The temptation one must overcome is that of "buffing the crap" out of the bell in order to attempt to disguise minor shortcomings in dent removal - due to the wreath still being attached. There simply isn't enough material there for those types of shenanigans.
Are we talking about repair of bells like my old kaiser (see pics) ?
There is a slight ring or buzz on some notes, but a rubber rim-protection helps a bit.
Wim
Wim
Re: bell wreath buzzing + new word
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:04 pm
by Rick Denney
oedipoes wrote:Are we talking about repair of bells like my old kaiser (see pics) ?
There is a slight ring or buzz on some notes, but a rubber rim-protection helps a bit.
That bell can definitely be rolled out on a dent machine. As Joe said, the edge of the wreath might be visible as an impression on the inside of the bell, but that would look a lot less objectionable than the wrinkles.
When I had my Mirafone tuba overhauled, my instructions were clear: No filing or sanding. I didn't mind seeing some of the scars of past dent removal, but I didn't want significant thickness removed. You can see an impression of the wreath on the inside of the bell, but nobody seems to mind. That bell was in worse condition than yours when I obtained the instrument.
Rick "who doesn't mind if an old tuba looks old, but who wants it to have the right shape, at least" Denney
Re: bell wreath buzzing + new word
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:29 pm
by oedipoes
Rick Denney wrote:oedipoes wrote:Are we talking about repair of bells like my old kaiser (see pics) ?
There is a slight ring or buzz on some notes, but a rubber rim-protection helps a bit.
That bell can definitely be rolled out on a dent machine. As Joe said, the edge of the wreath might be visible as an impression on the inside of the bell, but that would look a lot less objectionable than the wrinkles.
When I had my Mirafone tuba overhauled, my instructions were clear: No filing or sanding. I didn't mind seeing some of the scars of past dent removal, but I didn't want significant thickness removed. You can see an impression of the wreath on the inside of the bell, but nobody seems to mind. That bell was in worse condition than yours when I obtained the instrument.
Rick "who doesn't mind if an old tuba looks old, but who wants it to have the right shape, at least" Denney
mmm, dent machines are not common over here I think.
Repair techs tend to 'hammer' out dents, rather than roll. Also, that kaiser bell is made out of very thin sheetmetal, I don't want it to crack.
I also have never heard anyone talk about a magnetic dent remover here. (I have a badly damaged top bow, see pic)
Common practice is to unsolder the bows and hammer them out like the bodywork of a car (but more careful)
The result can be nice, but takes more time imo than rolling or magnetics and is thus more expensive.
I heard prices of about 2000EUR for making the kaisertuba dent-free...
And that does not include cosmetic things...
Wim (leaving the dents there in favor of a nice new BBb...maybe next year)
Re: bell wreath buzzing + new word
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:38 pm
by Wyvern
bloke wrote:bloke "who did not create the term, 'BAT' "
Out of interest, who did? When was the term BAT first used?
Re: bell wreath buzzing + new word
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:14 pm
by Rick Denney
Neptune wrote:bloke wrote:bloke "who did not create the term, 'BAT' "
Out of interest, who did? When was the term BAT first used?
I think it was Tony Clements who used it first. I've tried on several occasions to find that post in the old Tubenet archives, but haven't been able to find it. His post was intended to sort out the quarter system. I don't remember the details, except for the extremes: 3/4 mean "Is that thing a euphonium?" and 6/4 meant "big-assed tuba".
Maybe it was used before that time, but that's the first I recall.
Rick "wondering if Tony still lurks around here" Denney