possibly of interest to bass trombone doublers

[Tubainsauga]

I hope he's happy with it...and the price...

Certainly cheaper that this solution:
http://www.thein-brass.de/index_en.php? ... %26id%3D55" target="_blank" target="_blank

[imperialbari]

The Thein approach, which must be very vulnerable, was made specifically to avoid faking the low B-to-F glissando in Bartok’s concerto for orchestra.

What bloke did is not identical to, but closer to, the old GDR-Leipzig approach for making the B possible on a single valve trombone. All 7 positions were always treated like on a non-valve trombone. The slide tubing lowered the pitch a fifth, and the valve was only applied to the notes from Eb down through B natural.

Klaus

[ken k]

Looks cool. I always assumed those old Conns and Holtons had a "B" pull. Don't bach 50Bs have a B pull available?

I just sold a Yamaha 421 that had the odd Yamaha F attachment tubing wrap which does not allow for the B pull.

But I always thought the models with the longer tuning slides (like Bachs, Holtons and Conns) had enough slide already to make a B pull.

i am keeping my eyes out for an inexpensive Bach 50B. My double bass is just getting too heavy for this old fart.

ken k

[Bob Kolada]

Doesn't the Miraculous Mandarin have a lot of those glisses? That'd be quite an acrobatic workout!

[imperialbari]

Phishing for effects?

[Bob Kolada]

...

[ken k]

well i know who to call now when i do find a single valved horn!



ken k

[MartyNeilan]

Here is a shot of the dual pulls on my Reynold bass that Bloke knows well. Almost the entire F attachment is tuning slides.


This allows you to tune the trigger for F (or C) on one side, and then pull the second side for a low B. The horn even had a factory stop rod on the long pull (long missing, but not really missed.)

I keep both slides all the way in for low F in first, or pull the short slide about an 3/4" to 1" for second space C right at first and solid two ledger CC at the end of the slide (requires low F in 6, but a reasonable tradeoff for that solid low C). I can then keep the short slide where it is and pull the long slide almost all the way for a solid low B at the end of the slide. (this means 6 pos for F's and C's, and 7 pos for low E; B in the staff does work trigger 1 slightly lipped up.) To really get extreme, you can pull both slides all the way and get an Eb in trigger 1 (although the response on the trigger feels a little funny then.)

This is one of the best single trigger designs ever made, and was conceived over 50 years ago. It is too bad that the so-called "open wrap (usually on a very stuffy rotor) killed off these good ideas.

[MartyNeilan]

Here is another view of the dual pulls, from the pre-Bloke era:

[tbn.al]

We used to pull the F slides to E on the old Holtons and Yamaha for whole sections at a time requiring C's and F's in 6th and transposing the F side. Won't help the Bartok though. The worst problem was always the damage we did to our horns trying to accomplish the pull and push back as quickly as possible so as not to have to transpose any more of the piece than absolutely necessary. Every year someone would frack the F slide or pull too far and miss the entrance you were pulling for. There is very little margin for error. To get the B you had to be way out on the end of both the F slide and the hand slide. I really like my dual independent Hagmann's a lot. No resistance problem and they don't weigh anything. But that still doesn't fix the Bartok. He must have really been an idiot not to have anticipated the instrument devlopment future any better than he did.

[tbn.al]

Yes, but Bartok failed to forsee the advent of the Bb bass trombone with F(G)(Gb)(E)(D) attachment(s). If we were all still using the F bass trombone, with accompanying T handle, bloke would have lost out on this marvelous engineering exercise and the resulting, probably less than spectacular, payday.

[imperialbari]

The non valved British G bass trombone has its empty gap between C# below the staff and the G below. The B natural is not there, and worse: the Brahms 1 low C isn’t there either. According to Denis Wick this was solved by means of the valved G trombonem which was used either as G/D or as G/C.

I think it is in Walton’s viola concerto that the bassbone suddenly acts as 2nd, while the 2nd raids below its pedal Bb. And no, I wouldn’t know about that, if I hadn’t a book with trombone/tuba excerpts from the British repertory. According to that book the parts were swapped back when the basses became double valve Bb’s. And no, I cannot give details on that book, as it is in my old condo with most of my library.

I am no Bartok expert, but I thought he was in the US from the beginning of WWII through the end of his life. I am most surprised that he should have written anything not playable by the orchestra commissioning a work. It is years ago I read Douglas Yeo’s site. Doesn’t he mention one or more old F basses belonging to the BSO? I don’t remember the details of that concert for orchestra, but isn’t the gliss a stand-alone gimmick with sufficient rests before and after to change instrument?

One of the two Conn BBb contrabasses now is said to belong to an orchestral bassbone player in Pennsylvania I think. I have seen a video clip where he used that instrument for the Bartok gliss, which works fine up to 2nd partial F. But he also had his regular Bb double valve bassbone ready on a stand.

My British G bassbones are non-valvers from 1920 and 1960 plus one of the last valved ones made in 1978. As part of a project in preparation somewhere in the woods I may end up with a good mouthpiece for the 1978 sample. Next step will be getting some tubing to turn that instrument into a G & C tuning. I will need male tubing with an outer diameter of 14.76mm/0.581" and female tubing with the same numbers for inner diameter. The lengths shall be 284mm/11.186".

Klaus

[imperialbari]

No matter how you set up the slides of a two valve Bb bass trombone you cannot do the Bartok gliss on such instrument without resorting to solutions in the Thein or Bobo styles. Or you fake the gliss by starting true on B natural and push the slide out while releasing the 2nd valve and then pull the slide in.

The early 20th century section displays instruments I would call old German style from the wide bell bows and from the obvious absence of slide locks.

Klaus

[J.c. Sherman]

I think it is in Walton’s viola concerto that the bassbone suddenly acts as 2nd, while the 2nd raids below its pedal Bb. And no, I wouldn’t know about that, if I hadn’t a book with trombone/tuba excerpts from the British repertory. According to that book the parts were swapped back when the basses became double valve Bb’s. And no, I cannot give details on that book, as it is in my old condo with most of my library.

Many British works have moments like that.... The Elgar Cockaigne overture has trombones 1-2 on a pedal Ab with trombone 3 an octave higher.

I am no Bartok expert, but I thought he was in the US from the beginning of WWII through the end of his life. I am most surprised that he should have written anything not playable by the orchestra commissioning a work. It is years ago I read Douglas Yeo’s site. Doesn’t he mention one or more old F basses belonging to the BSO? I don’t remember the details of that concert for orchestra, but isn’t the gliss a stand-alone gimmick with sufficient rests before and after to change instrument?

From Doug's website: "Bartok was writing from experience with a bass trombone in F (no valves) which would negotiate the gliss (from low B to F) with no problem from seventh to first position. The instrument was never popularized in the United States, thus causing a problem that took decades to solve. - D.Y."

A photo from Doug's site showing the trombone section of the BSO in 1910 shows a Bb/F bass.


Yes, the gliss in question has a short break before hand and a longer break after. It was the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra problem and Kauko Kahila, bass trombone of the BSO from 1952-1972 which is why we have double valve basses now.

RC

Actually, the pic is of a Bb/E Bass.

[robcat2075]

Have you presented this mod and the pictures on the trombone forum already?

If not, I'm sure it would be of interest.

[MartyNeilan]

Here is a shot of the dual pulls on my Reynold bass that Bloke knows well. Almost the entire F attachment is tuning slides.


This allows you to tune the trigger for F (or C) on one side, and then pull the second side for a low B. The horn even had a factory stop rod on the long pull (long missing, but not really missed.)

I keep both slides all the way in for low F in first, or pull the short slide about an 3/4" to 1" for second space C right at first and solid two ledger CC at the end of the slide (requires low F in 6, but a reasonable tradeoff for that solid low C). I can then keep the short slide where it is and pull the long slide almost all the way for a solid low B at the end of the slide. (this means 6 pos for F's and C's, and 7 pos for low E; B in the staff does work trigger 1 slightly lipped up.) To really get extreme, you can pull both slides all the way and get an Eb in trigger 1 (although the response on the trigger feels a little funny then.)

This is one of the best single trigger designs ever made, and was conceived over 50 years ago. It is too bad that the so-called "open wrap (usually on a very stuffy rotor) killed off these good ideas.

I really miss that horn

[Donn]

I really miss that horn

Mine still has the stop rod. The trombone guys were astounded at the weight - 2 lbs 4 oz. Well, actually I think they really didn't believe it, but I measured it several different ways.

I leave it tuned to E, where I can just marginally get a low B with the slide teetering off the end. I haven't noticed the phenomenon you describe with 3rd partial C and 2nd partial F tuning in different places. Likewise I've read some discussion about the 3rd partial F (from Bb) always being sharp, but can't see it on my cell phone tuner. This is another thing on which the guys clearly disbelieve me, but in this case I guess it could be me adjusting the pitch in some way.

[Untersatz]

I need to stop reading this thread. It makes me miss my Conn 72h that was stolen out of my car 15 years ago.

and me regret selling the Elkhart 72H I had....

Dillon Music has three of 'em if you guys miss 'em that much

[jwjeffrey]

I just sold my King Duo Gravis Bb/F/D.Very nice horn.

[Donn]

Tubenet: where we sell the horns we love, if they aren't tubas.