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I'm trying to nail down the model number on my newly acquired "big, bad Conn".

The serial number places it at 1933.

It's a 6/4 BBb, 4 front action valves, with a DETACHABLE, upright bell.

Pictures and measurements can be provided in answer to specific queries.

One webpage says that a 34J is an upright bell and a 36J is a bell front model. BUT...the illustrations I can find from that era show upright bells as ONE-PIECE.

The question is: what makes the difference? Is it the fact that the bell is front facing, or that it is detachable?
[the latter seems most logical, to me]

One-piece, upright bell is pretty clearly a 34J.

Two-piece, bell front is pretty clearly a 36J.

So...what's a two-piece upright bell? [my guess is: 36J]

BTW - a cursory examination suggests that the case for the bell can accomodate EITHER an upright bell OR a front-facing bell. Is that correct? [and... anyone have a front-facing bell for sale? I might as well complete the set.]

sloan wrote:The question is: what makes the difference? Is it the fact that the bell is front facing, or that it is detachable?

Ken and I have been having a conversation in private this afternoon, which is what brought this up. So, I'll put the evidence I came across that prompted that conversation in case in triggers knowledge from actual experts. I haven't said all this to Ken yet, but since he started a thread I'll put it here.

I ran across an old TUBA journal in a file cabinet. The Tuba History article for that issue (Spring, 1989) was titled "Highlights from the 1924 C. G. Conn Bass Catalog." That article included a reproduction of Page 18, which showed "The C. G. Conn Ltd. New Wonder Model Orchestra Grand Bass in BBb or CC." The tuba pictured showed a front-action, four-valve tuba of the grand orchestral type (think: York). From a distance, it looks like any other Yorkophone (should we call the York a Connophone?--this catalog predates the CSO York by six years), with only a few exceptions. The first valve branch has an upper and a lower slide, like a sousaphone. And the fourth-valve branch is wrapped up behind the other valve branches rather than running along the left side as it does on Yorkophones. The valves are arranged much more vertically than on Ken's instrument, and the point straight out to the front and not at an angle. The leadpipe feeds an angled knuckle on the top of the first valve.

It's not the same as Ken's big Conn in many details. But here's the punchline: The catalog page says: "Front Action. BBb Orchestra Grand--34-J. CC Orchestra Grand--36-J."

That was 1924.

In 1934, the Conn catalog introduced the short-action 2xJ models, apparently for the first time. For those not wanting the short-action valves, the same instruments were available with long-action valves, but with a 3xJ model number. The numbers were assumed to be the same otherwise. The 1934 catalog describes all the 3xJ instruments as "DeLuxe Recording Model Bass". The 30J and 34J have top-action valves (3 and 4, respectively). The 32J and 36J have front-action valves. All of them have detachable bell fronts. The valve arrangement on the 36J is diagonal and like the valves in Ken's picture. On that basis, I had thought it was a 36J, and told him so when he was first looking at it. That's probably why he has been calling it that.

If his dates (reliably) to 1933, it could still be the instrument in the catalog, as would appear to be the case. And with an upright bell, it might be a 37J--front action with an upright bell--to conform to later reports of the 2xJ numbering system. (25J is an upright-bell 24J, 21J is an upright-bell 20J, etc.) No upright bells are described in the 1934 catalog extract that I have.

So, in 1924, 34J meant "Bb" and 36J meant "C". In 1934, 34J meant "top-action" and 36J meant "front action". My inclination is to think the later numbering applies to this instrument, because it has the same valve layout and arrangement as what is shown in the 1934 catalog. That would make it a 36J if Ken finds that forward bell. And it could be a 1924 36J with its current bell if he plays really sharp.

By the way, I think any 20J forward bell will fit this instrument just fine, and should be relatively easy to find, even if one must buy the instrument it's attached to.

Rick "who caused all this confusion" Denney

None of these.

Both models are bell-front. 34J has 4 top action pistons. 36J has 4 front action pistons.

bloke says that old sousaphones often come with bells other than their original one. This tuba may be a hybrid of a 36J body and a a bell from a 21J or a 25J.

imperialbari wrote:None of these.

Both models are bell-front.

Did you read my post? In the earlier 1924 catalog, 34J was Bb and 36J was C, and the picture showed a fixed upright bell.

Rick "recalling Conn's reputation for recycling model numbers" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:

imperialbari wrote:None of these.

Both models are bell-front.

Did you read my post? In the earlier 1924 catalog, 34J was Bb and 36J was C, and the picture showed a fixed upright bell.

Rick "recalling Conn's reputation for recycling model numbers" Denney

Fixed upright doen’t apply in this case anyway. Are there any signs that the cutting and the mounting of the collars were done after the tuba left the factory? The bell looks like factory made. While the 2XJ series was in production in all its variants, it would have been no problem to acquire an upright bell.

Is this tuba more similar to the 1924 samples or to the 1934 samples, when it comes to the body architecture?

There's still the issue of the Conn Loyalist page (I think that's right) that specifically says that from 1929 to the mid 1930's (different end years for the two options) 34J meant "upright" and 36J meant "bell front".

Rick has produced pictures of upright models - BUT THEY WERE ONE-PIECE.

The bell in question has *very faint* surviving engraving on it. I will go over it with a strong oblique light and a careful eye, looking for clues. My recollection is that I have seen the words "Elkhart" - but no numbers or model names (which does not mean they are not there - just that I didn't notice them.

The collar and bell *appear* to be original, and the tuba arrived in two matched cases. As previously noted, the bell case appears to me to be able to accomodate *either* an upright *or* a forward facing bell. The appearance of the cases and the instrument indicate to me that the pieces are a matched, original set (but I might be wrong).

I suppose one question someone would know the answer to is: were there (in 1933) upright, DETACHABLE Conns? And, if so, did the model number change when you swapped bells.

OR...as I'm guessing, were there onepiece upright bells (with one model number) and "recording" tubas with detachable bells that could accomodate either an upright bell or a forward facing bell (with a second model number).

Excellent evidence might include a catalog page showing a detachable, upright bell. Some sources seem to indicate that catalogs showed ONLY bellfront pictures even when the tuba in question was available with a detachable upright bell.

It just seems to me to make more sense to have the model number depend on whether there was a one-piece bell or a collar - and make very little sense to have the model number depend on which detachable bell was attached. But, what makes sense to me does not always make sense to other people.

:

imperialbari wrote:Is this tuba more similar to the 1924 samples or to the 1934 samples, when it comes to the body architecture?

I agree that the 1934 descriptions are more applicable, but your first response seemed a little more comprehensive than that.

Rick "just putting the record out there" Denney

sloan wrote:There's still the issue of the Conn Loyalist page (I think that's right) that specifically says that from 1929 to the mid 1930's (different end years for the two options) 34J meant "upright" and 36J meant "bell front".

I would not trust the Conn Loyalist page at all, in comparison to actual pages from catalogs.

I think it is entirely reasonable that the upright-bell models were offered and just not included in the catalog. They may have been offered earlier, later, or concurrently. They may have been in a different catalog. Telling to me is that the valve and valve tubing arrangement of the 1934 36J with bell front is identical to yours.

Yes, Conn used different model numbers in the later 2xJ and 3xJ lines for instruments with forward and upright bells, as Rob Perelli-Minetti and Lew have described on many occasions in the past. Haven't heard from Lew since his anticipated move to Ohio--but maybe he'll chime in. And maybe that guy down in Austin--what was his name?--has some old catalogs lying around.

But here is what we know:

In 1924, 34J was a Bb four-valve front-action BAT with a fixed upright bell. 36J was a CC four-valve front-action BAT with a fixed upright bell. That is known. Those instruments don't seem to share much with yours except general size.

And in 1934, 34J was a top-action BAT with a detachable bell front, and 36J was a front-action BAT with a detachable bell front.

These two things are documented fact.

The big change seems to have been motivated by the introduction of the 2xJ with short-action valves, and possibly by the removal of the CC from the line (I didn't see a C tuba anywhere in the 1934 catalog, though they probably still made them on order). You're basing your dating on serial number lists, and I think it entirely likely that the instrument you have is part of that 1934 model year in the catalog, or at least referenced by that catalog.

I don't think, therefore, that it's likely that in between these two, the difference between 34J and 36J was fixed vs. detachable. It is just not plausible, no matter what the Loyalist says. The Loyalist information is based on just the sort of speculating we are doing about instruments we've seen and owned, after all.

We also know that a bit later (maybe), the 20J was a 3-valve top-action recording tuba, the 21J a 3-valve top-action upright tuba, the 22J a 3-valve front-action recording tuba, the 23J a 3-valve front-action upright tuba, the 24J a 4-valve top-action recording tuba, the 25J a 4-valve top-action upright tuba, the 26J a 4-valve front-action recording tuba, and the 27J a 4-valve front-action upright tuba. Not all of these have been seen in the flesh, but enough have to establish the numbering. Since the 1934 catalog, which pictures your instrument (except for the easily replaced bell), lines up with this numbering for the 30J, 32J, 34J, and 36J, then I think it safe to conclude that if a number is needed at all, the upright-bell versions are these plus one, as with the 2xJ series.

So, you have a 37J. Or, a 36J with a 25J bell, which, by the way, will fit fine.

Rick "thinking Conn recycled the numbers to account for two changes: Short-action valves and the removal of the CC BAT from the line" Denney

It has been told that Conn made many custom models to specific orders. I don’t think my gold plated 40K was made for a random store shelf.

This actual tuba may have been made to special order with its matching cases. Yet it might be hard to exclude the possibility that a sometime owner made a customization/an upgrade by buying the upright bell and the matching cases. That is if the collars have matching 2-digit numbers, which for sure would tell bell and body being out of the same batch.

OK - taking magnifying lens in hand and searching for clues for Klaus:

a) on the collar - I find one and only one number (note: I may well have missed something).
The number is: 54

b) on the bell - I find TWO notations (note: I may well have missed others).
The first notation is: 54
The second notation is: 36J


So...is the "54" a collar/bell identifier (indicating that the bell and collar were born together)? or is it a size of some sort?

And...it's pretty clear that it's OK to refer to this as a "36J" (note that the "36J" is on the BELL and it seems clear that this body paired with a bellfront would be a "36J"). [is there somewhere I might look for a "36J" on the body?]

If some (trusted) soul would like to double check my serial number dating (from the 2nd valve casing), PM me and I'll send the SN. I went where Google took me and got the answer "1933" (is that the date the valve cluster was produced, or is it also a reliable date for the tuba as a whole?)

The engraving on the bell is *very* faint. I can't make out very much. My recollection (but not my observation tonight) is that the word "Elkhart" is there, embedded in a rather large wreath-like pattern. If necessary, I can try harder to tease out the entire engraving pattern.

And finally, I note that the bell case perfectly fits the existing bell, but LOOKS LIKE (esp. from the outside) it would hold a bellfront bell. The best way to describe this is to say that the case looks like a sousaphone case with the stereotypical wart surrounding the curved part of the bell.

Pictures to follow - tell me what feature would be most useful to see clearly.


BTW - the bell is 24" in diameter, and the bottom bow is 42" off the floor when the tuba is standing on the bell.

Now...everyone check your project horn piles and see if you can find a 24" bellfront bell marked "54". You may have found a buyer.

bloke wrote: Who really knows if some original bell flare was trashed and later someone ordered a nice new 25J detachable bell and adapted a former fixed-bell tuba to accept it?

And if they were truly devious, they might mark the bell "36J".

If I recall in my searching, that second number "54" describes the final fit and finish of the horn being built. In example, satin silver w/ bright silver appointments, or a totally complete bright silver w/ gold wash bell, I have seen a list of descriptions for these coded finishes, but, I am not recalling them at this time. Their were/or are, a lot of variations available, thus the stenciled coding on bell and body.

Dave

tundratubist wrote:If I recall in my searching, that second number "54" describes the final fit and finish of the horn being built. In example, satin silver w/ bright silver appointments, or a totally complete bright silver w/ gold wash bell, I have seen a list of descriptions for these coded finishes, but, I am not recalling them at this time. Their were/or are, a lot of variations available, thus the stenciled coding on bell and body.

Dave

So..."54" on the body is all you need (it should be fairly obvious from other details what model we're talking about - or, dang it, it might be possible that the body does NOT nail down the model number. This would support the idea that a given body can be a 36J or ...something else... depending on the bell attached).

The "36J" on the bell is different. So far, most folk agree that this body with a bell front bell is a 36J, but we were unclear on what to call this body with an upright, detached bell. The marking seems to settle this - it's a 36J!

According to this view, the "54" on both bell and body tells us nothing about how and when they were joined. Perhaps in the factory, perhaps in a basement in Alabama last week. All it says is that the fit and finish match.

By 1933, it seems reasonable that *all* detachable bells should have been made to close enough tolerances so that they would fit in *all* collars designed for that model. Is there really any need for individually matching body to bell?

tundratubist wrote:If I recall in my searching, that second number "54" describes the final fit and finish of the horn being built. In example, satin silver w/ bright silver appointments, or a totally complete bright silver w/ gold wash bell, I have seen a list of descriptions for these coded finishes, but, I am not recalling them at this time. Their were/or are, a lot of variations available, thus the stenciled coding on bell and body.

The 1934 catalog that Klaus attached shows that the finish designator was a single digit. In the case of the 36J, 36-J-4 was polished brass, 3 was satin silver with polished inside bell, 2 was satin silver with a gold inside bell, 0 was satin gold, 00 was burnished gold. The price ranged from $295 to $605 in those finishes.

sloan wrote:

bloke wrote: Who really knows if some original bell flare was trashed and later someone ordered a nice new 25J detachable bell and adapted a former fixed-bell tuba to accept it?

And if they were truly devious, they might mark the bell "36J".

You know those deviants.

But it could be that your very first surmise was correct, that this instrument was originally supplied with both bells, in which case they probably would have given it one model number--36J.

As I recall from one of Rob's posts in the deep past, the 27J was an assumed number with no actual examples seen. I would think it would be even moreso for the 37J. It may be that the upright bell was offered only as an added option to a standard 36J, so that you had a bell front, or a bell front and a bell up. Dunno.

I think you'll find it pretty challenging to find a 36J bell someone is willing to part with. But if you borrow Eric von Schteric's Chinese stamps, you could turn a 20J bell into a 36J pretty quickly! I suspect it would work as well as anything for the sorts of gigs you might use a 36J recording tuba for.

I also wonder if Conn actually printed a new catalog every year. 1932 and '33 especially were not years when manufacturers were spending money needlessly. The 1934 catalog shows endorsements from players going back some years before that, as the 1924 catalog had done. In fact, I suspect it's not impossible that they only produced a new catalog at each major model change. I still bet yours was part of that new series, even if it really was made in 1933. The 1934 catalog may well have actually be printed in 1933.

Rick "thinking that 24" for the upright bell and 26" for the forward bell were standard for the 30's and later big Conns" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:

tundratubist wrote:If I recall in my searching, that second number "54" describes the final fit and finish of the horn being built. In example, satin silver w/ bright silver appointments, or a totally complete bright silver w/ gold wash bell, I have seen a list of descriptions for these coded finishes, but, I am not recalling them at this time. Their were/or are, a lot of variations available, thus the stenciled coding on bell and body.

The 1934 catalog that Klaus attached shows that the finish designator was a single digit. In the case of the 36J, 36-J-4 was polished brass, 3 was satin silver with polished inside bell, 2 was satin silver with a gold inside bell, 0 was satin gold, 00 was burnished gold. The price ranged from $295 to $605 in those finishes.

so...one might think that the "54" kinda matches the "4" in the catalog (the horn *is* "polished brass").

Any other ideas on what the "54" might mean? (anyone with any big Conn with a collar might find such a number on the collar - with enough responses, perhaps we can figure it out). It doesn't obviously correspond to any measurement I can think of - so it's either an ID (like a serial number - but 54 is pretty small, no?) or a code of some sort).

Now - it's your opinion that any 2xJ forward bell would *fit*? In that case, you are correct that my intended use for such a beast would not be picky about finish. July 4 outdoors springs to mind - in which case a nice Red/White/Blue multicolored lacquer job might be interesting.... I'll look around for something bloke can work with.

I agree with you that it's highly possible that the upright bell was included (probably as an extra cost option), but that the ad campaign (the catalog) pushed the unique qualities of the bellfront configuration. The fact that the upright bell fits in a case obviously designed with the bell front in mind is strong evidence (but...I must do some more measuring - if the bell front was 2" wider, I need to check that it would fit in this case).

sloan wrote:.... so...one might think that the "54" kinda matches the "4" in the catalog (the horn *is* "polished brass").

Any other ideas on what the "54" might mean? .....

That '54' probably means nothing more than the collar/tenon sets were numbered to keep them together through the assembly process.

sloan wrote:Any other ideas on what the "54" might mean? (anyone with any big Conn with a collar might find such a number on the collar - with enough responses, perhaps we can figure it out).

I seem to recall that maybe King put the last couple of digits of the serial number on the bells that were matched to the bodies of old 1241's. Does "54" figure interestingly in the serial number?

I don't think it was unusual for instruments to come with both bells, especially if ordered that way.

As to the cases, a picture might help someone render an opinion on whether it would fit both a straight and curved bell.

Rick "whose York Master came with both bells, for whatever that's worth" Denney

TubaTinker wrote:

sloan wrote:.... so...one might think that the "54" kinda matches the "4" in the catalog (the horn *is* "polished brass").

Any other ideas on what the "54" might mean? .....

That '54' probably means nothing more than the collar/tenon sets were numbered to keep them together through the assembly process.

Well, actually - that would be quite a lot! It would mean that it's nearly certain that the bell and body left the factory together in 1933.

I suppose it's still *possible* that some bloke hacked away at the tuba and added *both* parts to the body at some later time....but I'm going to choose to ignore that possibility.

Rick Denney wrote:

sloan wrote:Any other ideas on what the "54" might mean? (anyone with any big Conn with a collar might find such a number on the collar - with enough responses, perhaps we can figure it out).

I seem to recall that maybe King put the last couple of digits of the serial number on the bells that were matched to the bodies of old 1241's. Does "54" figure interestingly in the serial number?

No joy - they don't share a single digit.

I don't think it was unusual for instruments to come with both bells, especially if ordered that way.

As to the cases, a picture might help someone render an opinion on whether it would fit both a straight and curved bell.

Rick "whose York Master came with both bells, for whatever that's worth" Denney

Pictures...tomorrow. For now, we know that the upright bell fits in the case (that's how it was delivered to me). Now - try to think of a reason that a case for an upright bell would be made with the distinctive profile of a Sousaphone case, UNLESS it was to accomodate the curved throat of a bellfront bell.

I agree that the most likely scenario is that the body was offered with BOTH bells, and *therefore* that the model number depended on the fact that the bell was detachable and NOT on whether it was upright or bellfront.

Which answers the question that started the thread: it's a 36J.