American vs European Tuba Sound

[LoTone]

Hello Fellow Tubists,

I have been out of Tuba playing since I finished High School about 16 years ago and I want back in. I have found a few suitable community concert bands in my area (Montreal, Canada) and I am shopping for a Tuba.

I am scouring the Net for brands and models. Pondering about rotary vs piston valves issues and the like.

I keep seeing in marketing material, the notion of an American sounding Tuba versus an European sounding Tuba. I confess, I have no idea what an American sounding tuba sounds in contrast with an European sounding tuba.

Back in High School, I played either a Yamaha 103, a Yamaha 105 or Yamaha 321.

Can anyone enlighten me?

Thanks.

[iiipopes]

186

Comes in your choice of BBb or CC. The standard workhorse. QC is about as good as it gets, even if you have to purchase without getting to play it. Purchase a good clean, used one, and you will probably play it the rest of your community band life. It doesn't do everything (no tuba does) but it does almost anything at least passably well, and the newer ones with the 17 3/4 inch wider flared bell is a staple for bands, although many people still prefer, with good reasons, the tone of the older 16 1/2 inch bell. Sounds good with a vast array of mouthpieces, so you can find a good mouthpiece that will fit your embouchure, your breath support, and your style of playing and it will sound good. Maybe not great, but at least good to very good. Being a known quantity, you won't have to explain yourself when you show up to rehearsal. People will know you know what you're doing. And if you ever find something you like better, and you've taken good care of it, assuming you got a decent deal in the first place, you can sell it for about what you have in it.

Brief summary of quirks: can "bark" in the lowest register. 5th partials can be flat and need the "alternate fingerings" of 1+2 for midline D, 2+3 for midline Db, and shove 1 in or use 4 for 2nd space C (BBb version).

I say this not because I have one, but in spite of it. Like you, I was out of tuba playing for @20 years. When I came back, I was actually looking for anything but a 186. But it found me, and I'm very glad it did. Mine is a detachable bell variant, so with the help of Dan Schultz I have both bells up and running: the "up" bell for most indoor gigs, and the recording bell for stage gigs and outdoor gigs.

[LoTone]

Thanks for the suggestions. There is already a tuba player in the band. So, I would be second chair. Also, the band is kind on the small side about 40 musicians.

As for the BBb or CC debate, in my early days, I started on an Eb tuba for my first year then moved on to BBb for the remaining 5 years. So, I guess that BBb would be more natural for me but I would not mind learning new fingerings to play a CC.

[LoTone]

I appreciate the advice for buying an instrument.

However, my primary concern is:

• What does it mean for a tuba to have an "American sound" or an "European sound"?

[Wyvern]

American v European sound has been debated here numerous times without agreement of exactly what they mean. There are not two characteristic sounds. Different models vary in tone also just as much affected by who is playing them.

A greater consideration for you is what size tuba you want. If it is mainly for community band then you might want to get something larger than 4/4 - not to put out more volume, but because large tubas just provide a better foundation to the band through their broader tone.

However the final choice is down to the sound you want to make and what model suits your playing.

[LoTone]

Community band eh?

If its anything like the community bands I play with, they'll be happy with anyone that can put out that tuba sound regardless of the "American-European sound". A three banger would fit quite nice. That Yamaha 321 is a good instrument, not nearly the amount of issues that rotary valves sometimes have. Its still a community band though, so I would say find a used King or Conn or Yamaha (bell up or front - front if you're the only tuba player to play against 60+ people).

Whats your budget?
Are you more comfortable on BBb or CC?
Are there any other tuba players in the band?

I am quite surprised by the three banger comment. While searching the Net, I have found tons of material that explains at length that the 4th valve is an absolute must. While in High School, I played both 3-valves and 4-valves tuba. I always got by fine with the 3-valves. My Director never complained about intonation problems in the low register. As a matter fact, it is only recently that I have learned about the absolute necessity of the 4th valve. Among the tuba I have played, my favorite was that small Yamaha YBB-103. A small front action tuba with a decent round sound that climbed in the high register easily.

My budget is rather modest. I am really pondering about the benefits of buying either:

• A used full-featured 4-valve tuba from a prestigious name brand.
  A new 3-valve tuba from a prestigious name brand.
  A new full-featured 4-valve tuba chinese copy (i.e. Schiller, M&M, Dillon, Tuba Exchange, etc...)

Thanks for your input.

[TexTuba]

All of this terminology means NOTHING, LoTone. The ONLY sound that matters is the sound you make. So many folks get caught up on equipment and it is silly. Find a horn that is decent at worst, works for YOU, and practice your butt off to sound great! It's all preference, man. Have fun!

[sloan]

I can depress fourth valve and play in C with some better tuning on some notes.

How does that work, exactly?

[bearphonium]

LoTone, you're about 3 years behind me, and I am still on my quest. Your quandry of used name vs. new knock off is one that I am dealing with myself. My 2 cents is to wait for a good used name brand to pop up; the knock offs seem to fall in a couple of catigories: Amazing and Awful. (FWIW, I currently play on a York Master 3 valve that I bought from a Tubenetter and have found plenty of need for a 4th valve playing in the community band and tuba ensemble that I play in.) I would love a 191, either a used Miraphone or a new Allora, or possibly the TE brand...I just have more confidence that a Miraphone would be a better horn, unless I was able to grab one of the "amazing" knockoffs.

As for the American vs Euopean sound....for me, I am delighted when my oompahs are in tune!

[LoTone]

I want to thank everyone for all your comments. I find that the "Community of Tubists" is quite vibrant.

I had a good night sleep on the matter and I decided to focus my search on a 4-valve BBb or CC. If it takes me more time to find the right instrument, I will also have more time to save money for a better instrument. From all the comments, I gather that I should not rush my quest and take the time to find an instrument that suits me.

As one fellow suggested, I feel that I should go to stores and give the prospective instruments a try out. I am very wary of buying an instrument online strictly based on reputation.

I have started another thread where I asked people:

Where can you buy a tuba in Montreal?

I knew a couple of stores but I wondered if there were not other stores that I did not know of. Surely enough, a fellow suggested a store that I did not know and the store advertises a set of used tubas. I will go and look them up. As for taking a ride down to the States for tuba shopping, that just might be a fun thing to do.

Thanks again folks.

[jonesbrass]

I can depress fourth valve and play in C with some better tuning on some notes.

How does that work, exactly?

not to overtake a thread:

I press my fourth valve down, now my tuba is in the key of C instead of Bb... So I can for example Bb with 1 and some other notes, not all of them mind you, but some. I think I recall doing a trill in one piece with this fingering combination in C

No, unless you have a tuba built with an ascending valve, the fourth valve on a typical BBb tuba will lower the pitch of your tuba a perfect fourth, effectively making it an "FF" tuba, one octave below the bass tuba in F. Yes, C exists in the overtone series of an "FF" tuba.
Back to the original post: I would look for a 4-valve tuba in BBb or CC. IMHO, neither pistons or rotors are superior, it's just a matter of preference. With proper care and maintenance, either can last a lifetime.

[iiipopes]

Taking a line which the OP has posted on the Toronto thread, I would not get anything smaller than a "4/4" horn, because it just won't "carry its weight" in a larger ensemble.

Examples of 4/4 BBb horns commonly used in community band, and of which a good used example might be within budget: Miraphone 186; King 1241; Cerveny 681; B&S PT-1 and its variations on a theme; including the older "Weltklang" versions, stencils and variants; M-W 25.

This is not an exhaustive list, nor even a comprehensive list. These are representative examples that do well in community bands for the average player. Feel free to add to the list, and yes, I did note that most of them are of European manufacture, and are rotary.

No, I didn't list Yammy. On purpose.

[Rick Denney]

American sounds have been described as "blossomy" while German sounds have been described as "columnar". But I think the differences are easier to hear in large orchestral tubas (5/4 and 6/4) than in 4/4 instruments. And I think those differences have as much to do with propagation effects in large rooms as in the spectral sound content coming out of the bell.

But I especially agree than none of that matters. What matters in a community band, in ranked order is:

1. Time
1. Rhythm (tied for first)
3. Pitch (including playing the right notes in addition to intonation)
4. Dynamics
5. Articulation
6. Phrasing
7. Tone
192. German or American sound

The question of German vs. American sound comes right behind remembering to wear long socks so the skin of your leg doesn't show when sitting on stage, and right ahead remembering to wear underwear. In my ranking system, importance becomes negligible at about number 10 or so.

Rick "for whom such discussions and concepts are there strictly for tuba players to amuse themselves" Denney

[imperialbari]

I can depress fourth valve and play in C with some better tuning on some notes.

not to overtake a thread:

I press my fourth valve down, now my tuba is in the key of C instead of Bb... So I can for example Bb with 1 and some other notes, not all of them mind you, but some. I think I recall doing a trill in one piece with this fingering combination in C

No, unless you have a tuba built with an ascending valve, the fourth valve on a typical BBb tuba will lower the pitch of your tuba a perfect fourth, effectively making it an "FF" tuba, one octave below the bass tuba in F. Yes, C exists in the overtone series of an "FF" tuba.
Back to the original post: I would look for a 4-valve tuba in BBb or CC. IMHO, neither pistons or rotors are superior, it's just a matter of preference. With proper care and maintenance, either can last a lifetime.

jonesbrass should be thanked for countering the nonsense dripping from below the kilt. Unless the tuba is a 4 valve compensator OR the 1st slide is pulled almost the equivalent of the 2nd slide, then the Bb to C trill is not possible on a Bb tuba by holding the 4th and rolling the 1st valve, if pitch does matter. The rare 5 valve BBb tubas may trill the 5th valve.

As for the American versus European sound the player’s tradition is the most important factor. Two players with nearly identical equipment may sound like out of each of these traditions.

I have first hand knowledge of the old European continental band tradition, and I hate it for treating the tuba like a tuned bass drum with very short non-decaying notes in marches. I better like the American tradition of making a musical line out of the bass function. The best samples being inspired by good bowed string bass playing. Tubas shall play in correct time, but they shall not let themselves reduce to time-keepers. The time shall be in the ensemble, not just in an ugly exaggerated tuba attack.

Klaus

[sloan]

No, unless you have a tuba built with an ascending valve, the fourth valve on a typical BBb tuba will lower the pitch of your tuba a perfect fourth, effectively making it an "FF" tuba, one octave below the bass tuba in F. Yes, C exists in the overtone series of an "FF" tuba.

Let the record show that I made no comment on the answer to my question. Some things speak for themselves.

[saktoons]

Welcome back!

DO NOT get a cheap Asian copy! When I was looking for my first tuba after a 21-year layoff, I played a few and realized they were not worth it even at their low prices. Noisy valves, out-of-tune, bad QC on the solders, etc. told me to steer clear (and I didn't even know what I was doing!). A local music shop owner had a used one for sale and, when I came in to play it, after talking to me about what I was looking for, he wouldn't even let me play the horn because he said "You want a better horn than this."

As for the American vs European sound, I cannot comment. I have seen posts saying European horns are brighter, but my German horn has a nice dark sound and I can also get it to sound very brassy with the right MP. Perhaps the difference is not so much where the horn comes from, but the player and the MP.

I ended up with a new VMI 2103 that I play for all my indoor brass band and wind ensemble gigs, a 20J that I use for almost all of my outdoor gigs, and a Bohm-Meinl sousaphone that I use for my stand up gigs. If I had it to do all over again, I would stick with a German horn, but I would go for piston valves instead of rotary. I prefer the crispness of the pistons over the rotary.

[eutubabone]

The type of horn you play, BB or CC, size, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, mouthpiece, etc. is important of course in production of sound. However I think that the size and shape of your oral cavity and sinuses gives each person a distinctive sound, similar to the differences in the tone quality in singers. Everyone's voice is uniquely "theirs". Your core sound is more influenced by your physical makeup rather than the equipment or manufacture, whether European or American. I believe this why some players hear their sound darker on European v.s. American or the other way around. The size and shape of your oral cavity determines what your "voice" will be. The type of equipment that you use will not, in my opinion, change the way your oral cavity operates, or resonates, when your lips are buzzing or when you are singing. I can play on a BB or CC of similar size with the same mouthpiece and I will still sound like "me" but with a slight variance in tone quality.

[Steve Inman]

"European sound" -- has sometimes been associated with Alexander and some Miraphone tubas, with such instruments being used as examples of said sound.
"American sound" -- has sometimes been associated with a tuba like a King 2341 or Conn 56J, with these instruments being used as example of this sound.

Rather than using this distinction, I have used horns with a broader, fluffier sound (i.e. my Conn 56J), and I have tried other horns with more "core" or "density" to the sound (I particularly like the Miraphone 1292 CC). Different horns will have differences in sound -- both to the player and to the tubists in the audience. For everyone else, like my wife, "it sounds like a tuba".

Happy hunting,

[Wyvern]

For everyone else, like my wife, "it sounds like a tuba".

I am not sure that non-tubists do not notice the difference. Non-musician friends I have played my various tubas to can always tell the difference in tone and I have frequently received comments on the special tone of my Neptune from audience members, or others in the orchestra at concerts - so very different from a Besson EEb usually heard in the UK.

[peter birch]

bearing in mind Rick Denneys comment that such a discussion is purely for our own amusement, I heard an interview on the radio this week with the next beautiful, blond trumpet player to come along, Tine Thing Helseth from Norway. She spoke of the difference between German and American trumpets, (the Germans, in general, play rotary valves and americans piston valves).
Anyway she described the german trumpet sound as "oval" and the american as "round", not that one was better than the other, just different, and that the difference came from the valves.
Now whether that is the perception of the player, or of a listener who is also a player I don't know. But I suspect that we each have our own paradigm players that we want to sound like, and if he's American, than that's what we want or if he's European then that's the sound we want to emulate.
I discussed this with iiipopes elswhere recently, but I am a British player, with a tuba made in Germany with a French label on the bell and an American model mouthpiece, so the sort of sound I make is anyones guess.