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Joe,

You are missing one really big point to purchasing instruments for a school. Many schools are locked into purchases by BID. They have to purchase instruments from specific vendors that are on the bid list. Some schools could have a booster organization pay the bill to get around the bid process, but many schools.....like mine.....don't have booster programs. Since used instruments cannot be put out for bid, the directors are stuck buying overpriced junk.

You are right, but working around the problem isn't as easy as it sounds.

That is exactly how my small-town school system did it. We functioned with King fiberglass souzys for years, and the junior high had a tuba chair.

As a junior, we finally got some King tubas for concert band use, along with stands.

The souzys and the tubas lasted for years because our director instilled personal responsibility for taking care of them. I got the oldest, most worn souzy, not because I was a freshman, but because when the senior who played it before me graduated, that horn became available to be assigned to me. I took extra care of it, because I was told that it didn't matter that it was the oldest, it had to be just as white as the others to look good as well as sound good on the field and in parade. I played that horn all through high school, as everybody was assigned ONE horn for the duration. No trading up or in, regardless of senior or freshman, section leader or last chair. The horns were taken care of for decades. They lasted for decades. The school band program had almost thirty consecutive years of top ratings at state contest under this director. I don't know how many went into music as a profession, but a significant number still play at least in a community band, church, etc. A friend of mine who went to college out of state was immediately assigned to be section leader, as a freshman, just on the strength of the college director knowing who his high school director was. Being a Navy man, he knew as well as anybody, and better than most, how to work a requisition system and budget to get the most for the money, and take care of it.

I agree totally with bloke.

I'll add one more vote that fiberglass sousys are COMPLETELY adequate for high school use. The suggestion will NEVER catch on, though. Probably the biggest reason is the coolness factor - and that is a real issue for the band director who is trying to convince students to play the tuba.

I would agree that band directors should refrain from buying these expensive "top of the line" horns--but for different reasons. Miraphones, MWs, Hirsbrunners are just not designed for prolonged use in public school band programs here in the US--and yes, kids tend to be tough on instruments (and they usually don't have to be high or drunk---sober kids are perfectly able to beat up on horns without any help). When I was in HS 30+ years ago, we had Conns, Kings, Yamahas--they were built to take abuse and play well--they lasted.

I think in this current economy, even wealthy school districts are going to be doing some serious cutbacks--and hopefully band directors will exercise good judgment and seriously think long term when purchasing instruments.

JJ

TUBAD83 wrote:I would agree that band directors should refrain from buying these expensive "top of the line" horns--but for different reasons. Miraphones, MWs, Hirsbrunners are just not designed for prolonged use in public school band programs here in the US--and yes, kids tend to be tough on instruments (and they usually don't have to be high or drunk---sober kids are perfectly able to beat up on horns without any help). When I was in HS 30+ years ago, we had Conns, Kings, Yamahas--they were built to take abuse and play well--they lasted.

I think in this current economy, even wealthy school districts are going to be doing some serious cutbacks--and hopefully band directors will exercise good judgment and seriously think long term when purchasing instruments.

JJ

While you are mentioning those brand names, let me add one more - and far below - Cerveny / Amati.
Great horns are coming out of their factory these days for mature players, however, they are much thinner / softer than their Miraphone / Meinl-Weston counterparts. The high school where I student taught went with Cerveny tubas, because they were able to buy one more with their allotted budget than if they had gone with the S186. Within a couple years, the Cerveny tubas were seriously dented. While any horn would have received some damage under the same treatment, they had Yamahas four times as old that did not have did not have damage to that degree.

MartyNeilan wrote:While any horn would have received some damage under the same treatment, they had Yamahas four times as old that did not have did not have damage to that degree.

Yes, now if only the valves of a Yammy held up as well as the outside branches.

I'll stick with a King for high school for all the reasons I've posted in many other threads.

.

bloke wrote:

Your suffering will be legendary even in hell!!

Referring to the work involved, of course!

What a good thought provoking topic, and with some good discussion.
I remember getting an old Pan American sousy to learn on at school back in the latter 50's. Part of the deal was if you play it - you take care of it. Up until my sophomore year of HS all we had were s'phones with chairs which we shared through Jr HS and HS. Everybody had to take turns cleaning them as well as making sure they were ready for the next player. Then the school bought a new Besson which only I was allowed to use for some time. After a year on the Besson I found and bought my own used King 3rotary valve "monster" BBb.

The Besson was purchased largely with funds raised thru the "Band Parents Club" and there was some controversy over whether so much should be spent on one instrument - something like $2500 which was a lot in the early 60's. The band director won the point when he mentioned that I had gone door to door selling "World's Finest Chocolates" to such a degree that it had raised about half of the money required to buy new uniforms for the full band of over 80.

Band programs are very expensive projects for any school and it certainly is important for all involved to ensure that value for money is considered when making purchases. Quantity and quality need to be balanced with long term planning done.

THEN, there is the little matter of those lucky enough to have a decent instrument provided for them taking responsibility for maintaining what has been handed to them. If you can't be bothered treating something borrowed as well as you would if it were yours, don't borrow it.

Ken Herrick wrote:THEN, there is the little matter of those lucky enough to have a decent instrument provided for them taking responsibility for maintaining what has been handed to them. If you can't be bothered treating something borrowed as well as you would if it were yours, don't borrow it.

Amen. Amen. That's what I teach my son, whether it be school band, camping out with Scouts, etc.

Uncle Buck wrote:I'll add one more vote that fiberglass sousys are COMPLETELY adequate for high school use. The suggestion will NEVER catch on, though. Probably the biggest reason is the coolness factor - and that is a real issue for the band director who is trying to convince students to play the tuba.

When I saw this, I thought of Bloke's story about his friend who made a major Army band with a 3v fiberglass sousy and no lessons.

One way that my band directors did it back then was to catch some kids with the "arts credit". In jr. high, the school had a requirement that each kid took an arts class. Singing, drawing, painting, playing in the band. Sooo... The band director had about five sousys in good shape and latched onto a few kids who wanted band as an arts credit but had no money for a horn. Three jr highs fed to the HS and there were four sousy players left for HS. One of my pals was one of those kids. In the eighth grade, he used to take the horn home on the weekend and practice on the one mile walk home....