TubeNet

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Interesting.

I was wondering what Hindemith was thinking during the time that he wrote his tuba sonata. I'm surprised that Jacobs did not want to give Hindemith some input about the tuba's capabilities even if he was not interested in solo playing during that time.

Very nice information, James. I've performed this piece before, and it always intrigued me as to how weird the piece sounds.

- Matthew "who feels a tiny bit smarter, but not really" Gray

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Did Hindemith live in Chicago? I thought he lived in New Haven when he was in the US.

Not to say that he didn't 'take a lesson' with Jake, but I wonder the extent of Mr. Jacobs' involvement. Hindemith supposedly learned to play every instrument he wrote a Sonata for, in an effort to better understand its capabilities. It sounds like he understood the alto horn better than the tuba.

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tubashaman2 wrote:... Low G to a high C would be a great solo range on a CC tuba...

Two observations to toss into the discussion:

(1) In contrast to the quoted reference to the instrument potentially being CC tuba, why does the work say for "Bass Tuba" rather than Contrabass? Doesn't quite jive.

(2) Is there any other actual documentation of Hindemith meeting with Mr Jacobs, and more specifically, is there any documentation of Mr Jacobs discussing or mentioning his "consultation" with Hindemith and the resulting input into the Sonata?

While not doubting the original poster's information, it strikes me as odd that Mr Jacobs lived many, many years beyond the time when this Sonata became a staple in the repertoire. I am curious why there are no commonly known references in either the related literature or anecdotally (at least that have not yet come to light in the mainstream). I would expect that one of the world's most visible and well known tubists would -- in some manner -- be more commonly identified with the work itself and the involvement in the prep work done by Hindemith.

Has anyone yet checked with the Hindemith Institute/Hindemith Foundation (and to check for references in Hindemith's papers and notes relating to the Sonata) for follow-up on this topic? (I know from my own research that it is not known where, when, and by whom the the work was premiered, as was confirmed by the same Hindemith Institute/Foundation scholars and archivists.)

Interesting topic.

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I think labelling parts 'Basstuba' is often the decision of the publisher, rather than composer. We have got to decide from assessment of the specific part (its context as well as range) and general performing practice if it is best played on a bass tuba, or a contrabass tuba.

Interesting topic!

James, before bothering to explore your hypothesis about the third movement, look for the answers within the music itself. I haven't looked at the piece in years, I'm sort of done with it personally, but the last time I gave it a good gander it took me about five minutes to realize that the themes of all three movements are built from the same series of 12 notes. I think the third movement is the retrograde inversion of the first movement, but honestly I can't remember and haven't looked hard at serial music of any sort in a while.

But the whole sonata is of a piece, built around a single series of pitches, and the last movement doesn't sound like the other two because, well, that's kind of the point of having different movements anyway.

Does anyone out there know where Hindemith was living when he wrote the piece? The Sonata was published in 1955. Hindemith left Yale in 1953 to teach and conduct in Zurich. Maybe he did intend for it to be played on a bass tuba. He was trained in Germany and only came to America to get some work. His music was banned from performance in 1936 in Germany. I think it's a little much of a stretch for him to not understand the difference between a bass tuba and a contrabass tuba, especially after traveling the world and conducting in many countries.

Maybe Hindemith sought the advice of several tuba players before writing a piece for tuba. Even before writing his sonata he certainly wasn't in the dark about the capabilities of the tuba. His band and orchestral parts are wonderful.

Perhaps people tend to take this piece more seriously than he ever intended it to be taken?

He wasn't exactly in a hurry to write a piece for tuba. If anything, it appears more that the motivation of the piece was to complete writing a sonata for each instrument in the orchestra, not make an epic piece for the instrument. With six years between the Double Bass Sonata and the Tuba Sonata, he wasn't exactly in a hurry to write a tuba piece. The guy literally wrote the Sonatas for modified Alto Horn, Double Bass, Harp, Viola d'Amore... not to mention a trio for hecklephone, koncerto for left handed piano... all before he even took a stab at ONE piece for tuba.

Pair that with the difficulty of the piano part, it could be argued he didn't have much faith in the tuba itself.


Wes "speaking in a tone of only moderate sincerity"

the elephant wrote:Well, HA HA HA HA! You are now recorded and get played at parties as musical entertainment similar to Florence Foster Jenkins!

You might share the fun on YouTube.

Klaus

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tubashaman2 wrote:I have also heard that this piece was written MANY years before published, and the publisher put the insane tempo markings

Interesting...source?

bloke wrote:Every evening of the week, people with serious looks on their faces stare into television cameras and misrepresent the truth. Most of them don't even know that they are doing it, as they are merely reading from teleprompters.

We had a local hotshot newscaster come to the University a year or two ago to narrate Licoln Portrait. The guy was beyond clueless, and had great difficulties. Fortunately, the conductor did a good job following him, and the orchestra had their eyes locked on the conductor, so the end result was not too terrible, despite some notes being held out a very long time. Needless to say, the talking head got a standing ovation.

P.S. Back on topic, I had expressed interest in doing the Hindemith at my undergrad, but most accompanists had already heard of his tuba sonata (apparently it quite infamous in their circle) and wouldn't touch it.

tubashaman2 wrote: Everything this guy has said about the greats he studied with has been dead on correct, [and] even has inspired [me] to do additional research on some of these topics.

It would better serve everyone if that inspired research was done before passing on the information as fact. If not, then we yet again will have an example of a "student of a student of Arnold Jacobs" passing on 3rd or 4th hand information without confirmation or understanding the application. Sadly, this can often completely confuse and/or mislead a LOT of younger players.

"Facts" you listed about Mr. Jacobs here. Ask yourself if you confirmed any of them.

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and he did not really like playing solo literature.

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In fact, he did the RVW a couple times....nothing else beyond that.

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Arnold Jacobs would teach solo repertoire, but did not prefer it

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People did not come to Jacobs to study solo literature, or even orchestra literature so much.

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Jacobs stated that Hindemith took lessons with him

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Jacobs was a humble man

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Didn't want to premiere or have his name associated with the Hindemith Sonata probably did not want to take credit (or if he hated the Sonata) have his name associated with it

James

tubashaman2 wrote:The professor here (not the tuba professor, but an ethnomusicology professor who played tuba professionally many years ago) took several lessons with Jacobs. Arnold Jacobs would teach solo repertoire, but did not prefer it, and he did not really like playing solo literature. In fact, he did the RVW a couple times....nothing else beyond that. ...

I believe this quote misrepresents Mr. Jacobs as a musician. His comment to me was that he didn't record or perform much solos often because it didn't pay! He grew up in the Depression and had obligations beyond his immediate family.

Mr. Jacobs played the RVW more than 'a couple of times'; he played it numerous times with the CSO. The orchestra even played it on a run out when I was in grad school.

He played solos at the Gunnison Music Camp, he played solos with a High School Band but... his job, his financial security was playing with the Chicago Symphony. There was even a period when he did not teach at Northwestern because it interfered with his schedule. Why? He told me that he lost money when he was away from the orchestra. He would not even do a masterclasses until the later part of his career.

He did state to me that the tuba solo literature wasn't very interesting (he did like the second movement of the Wilder Sonata, he said it reminded him of a particular bawdy song) but that doesn't mean he didn't like soloing; maybe he just didn't like the available tuba solo literature.

So to characterize him by saying that he 'did not really like playing solo literature' is wrong. All you had to do was hear him play Puccini's "Un Bel Di" to know he was a soloist of the highest order. Certainly the recordings of Mr. Jacobs solo performances (even in the basement) are astounding, even now.

While I have no research to support or argue the Jacobs/Hindemith connection, I am interested in seeing it followed up. However, I see little of Mr. Jacobs in the Hindemith. Mr. Jacobs was a romanticist, Hindemith was a neoclassic composer. So, tubashaman2, do the research and end the conjecture.

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I have had a petty complaint that I am the one person who quotes Mr. Jacobs on this board. I've waited a page and a half for some of my colleagues to chime in. It may be that none of them are on the board, at least not this part of it.

However, I think it is better to attempt to put these things in a more correct light than it is to sit by and do nothing. Mr. Jacobs certainly does not need me to defend him, but there is a definite need to correct mis-statements which marginalize his legacy.