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Hello all.
I have a few questions:
When did Boosey and Hawkes stop making Imperial 4 valve compensating tubas?
When did they start making Sovereign 4 valve compensating tubas?
Did they produce both models at the same time? If so, were they considered equal?

Thank you in advance for your replies.

To answer everything from back to front: until just before the bankruptcy, everything came out of the same Edgeware Road factory.

They all came down the same assembly line. Now this is oversimplified, but generally B&H were usually made up with frosted silver plate, conservative hardware, and was marketed to the military. Besson had more fluted hardware, usually lacquered, and marketed to contesting brass bands.

I believe the Imp ceased production sometime in the 60's, as Besson was becoming the main brand overall, and HP horns were also being discontinued. The standard model at this time became, of course, the New Standard. the Sovs started in the late 70's, got their 19" bells soon thereafter, were re-worked due to the intonation problems the new bells caused, and peaked in the early '90's before descending.

The only tuba I've ever owned from new was a B&H Imperial bought from Phil Parker's in London in 1978. It was a transitional model before the Sovereign name was set in stone. This had the flat tendencies of the early sovereigns & I had the "Fletcher cut" done on the instrument to get it up to pitch. cosmetically it WAS a sovereign, same hardware & fittings. Up to that point I had only ever seen one 19" bell model & that was a Besson New Standard used by a friend in the same youth band. The only discernable differences between the two instruments was the valve caps (and the numerous dents he'd managed to aquire!). As far as I know the name & valvecaps are the only things different between B&H Imperial & Besson New Standard and the Sovereign seems more akin to the Imperial in terms of fittings. The valve cluster is identical to my (MUCH earlier) Boosey & co Cavalry tuba, only the orientation of the valves is different, a picture of which can be seen in the "Can you name ALL these horns" threaviewtopic.php?f=2&t=36045

Hope that helps (or at least doesn't hinder too much)

Russ

About 1980 the Sovereign replaced the Imperial. They were not produced at the same time.

The main difference not mentioned was the Imperial had metal valve guides and the Sovereign nylon. I believe all Sovereign have 19" bells, where as only a few later Imperial did - most EEb had 15" and BBb 17".

Oh a another difference is the Imperial had a ball on the bottom bow (physically very uncomfortable played in the seated position!) which was removed on the Sovereign.

As well as the new standard, besson made a range of Instruments called the International, which is probably the true forerunner of the sovereign. The International cornets had the tuning triggers that became a feature of the sovereign cornet, and the International tuba had a 19" bell and was considered an orchestral instrument. The besson also had different shaped valve caps (I have to say I preferred the imperial valve caps).
In 1977 the band I was playing in at the time took delivery of 3 brand new Imperial tubas with 15" bells.
In 1975 in a moment of youthful impertanence, I went into Boosey and Hawkes in Regent street and had a play on a new sovereign euphonium.
I believe that the sovereigns were preferred to the Imperials though

iiipopes wrote:I believe the Imp ceased production sometime in the 60's. The standard model at this time became, of course, the New Standard. the Sovs started in the late 70's, got their 19" bells soon thereafter, were re-worked due to the intonation problems the new bells caused, and peaked in the early '90's before descending.

Sorry to say but this is incorrect. I bought a brand new B&H Imperial EEb in 1980. Imperials were replaced by Sovereigns perhaps a couple of years later.
My Imperial had a 19" bell as 19" bells were added to EEbs and BBbs as standard equipment from the late 1970s. Prior to that EEbs had 15" bells and BBbs had 17" bells. During the 1970s, there were some B&H Imperial (and Besson New Standard) EEbs around with 19" bells which were played by professionals like John Fletcher and John Jenkins, I presume they were made to special order.

Besson New Standard tubas were by and large identical to B&H Imperials, being made in the same factory, but with different finger buttons and top and bottom valve caps.

Sovereign EEbs differed from Imperial EEbs thus;
a) heavier bell.
b) removal of 'ballbearing' protection from bottom bow.
c) larger mouthpiece receiver to accept Bach mouthpieces.
d) plastic valve guides instead of metal.
I'm sure that there were some internal differences too as they certainly felt different to play compared to my Imperial.

The Sovereign EEb also came in two varieties whereas an Imperial was an Imperial! The 981 Sovereign had a larger leadpipe (which was virtually straight) known as the 'concert' model while the 982 Sovereign had a leadpipe similar to the Imperial and was known as the 'band' model.
The original Sovereign BBb was designated the 992 and had a straight leadpipe which was therefore a good couple of inches lower than on the Imperial BBb. It was superceded by the 994 which had a curved leadpipe and also did away with the false piece hand rest for the right hand.

WorldofBrass.com wrote:The Sovereign EEb also came in two varieties whereas an Imperial was an Imperial! The 981 Sovereign had a larger leadpipe (which was virtually straight) known as the 'concert' model while the 982 Sovereign had a leadpipe similar to the Imperial and was known as the 'band' model

I used to play in a band with a tubist who had a late Imperial with 19" bell which also had straight leadpipe like the 981, but it was narrower bore like the 982. It was frosted silver plate and is a variation I have never seen otherwise.

Neptune wrote:I used to play in a band with a tubist who had a late Imperial with 19" bell which also had straight leadpipe like the 981, but it was narrower bore like the 982. It was frosted silver plate and is a variation I have never seen otherwise.

Yes, I've seen a picture or two of this variation (perhaps Swiss brass bands) and think I saw one being used in Leighton Buzzard SA Band too!

Interesting info, I had no idea. One of my euphs is an old B&H Imperial I acquired from a retired Royal Navy bandsman. Plays great, only issue is the non-US receiver. Actually, a non-issue once I got a MP to match.

I stand corrected. I thought the B&H moniker was discontinued with the introduction of the Sovs. Thank you.

Of course, the purpose of the ball on the bottom bow was to align the tuba in its marching harness. The ball had been hacksawed off my tuba when I got it.

I still believe that Besson/B&H did a great disservice by enlarging the bell to 19 inches, which I believe took away some of the character of the tubas, making them too "woofy" in tone. Also, I'm surprised that the eefer bell was also enlarged to 19, as if they were going to enlarge the bells, but still keep a balance from bari to euph to Eb to BBb, they would have gone with a 17 inch bell to keep some proportion between the instruments.

This horn , BBb Besson, 4 valve ,no ball on bottom bow was purchase by my HS in 1970 ? It had an American reciever . Would this have been a Sovereign ?

That would be an Imp. Notice the bell flare tapers somewhat to the 17" rim, not all the way out to a 19" rim:

Just hearsay, but I heard that the Eb bell was enlarged to 19" at the request of John Fletcher who was receiving complaints from Geog Solti conducting the LSO about his tuba being too small - the straight leadpipe on the concert model was also to make the EEb appear larger out front. As I say this is just rumour, so may be complete rubbish.

The larger bell certainly does change its tone to broader, more American. The old 15" bell I think was rather small as old Imperial's can too easily 'bark' if played hard, but going by my Melton 2040/5, a 17" bell might have been a good balance between character and broadness.

WorldofBrass.com wrote:

Neptune wrote:I used to play in a band with a tubist who had a late Imperial with 19" bell which also had straight leadpipe like the 981, but it was narrower bore like the 982. It was frosted silver plate and is a variation I have never seen otherwise.

Yes, I've seen a picture or two of this variation (perhaps Swiss brass bands) and think I saw one being used in Leighton Buzzard SA Band too!

Gateshead SA band also had one that I borrowed to play at Cobham Hall music school in 1985.
The Salvation Army Also made a Super Triumphonic tuba with a 19" bell (one appeared on Ebay recently)
Bell size is an interesting issue, when (or maybe if) Besson gets round to making the Prestige tuba, as well as the gold valve caps and a tuning trigger somewhere, it will have a 17" bell.