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Can someone explain the difference between the Helleberg and the Helleberg 7B? Thanks.

The Helleberg 7B is a smaller cup mouthpiece than the 120 model. I believe what happened was they found the old lathe and continued using that it even after it had been worn down over years of cutting brass.

The 7B was actually stenciled from a 1920s Helleberg that was used to retrace the old small mouthpiece legend.

Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone.

I hope this helps.

So would the 7B be applicable for BBb or CC tuba?

Fair enough evaluation for the evolution theory, but tool cutting is a lot different from way back then... either one could be speculative.

The basic differences are not a result of tool wear, but intentional modifications produced by Mr Helleberg. Helleberg made mouthpieces to acoustically match the particular instrument he was playing. There have been many different Helleberg sizes emerge over the years and I am certain that this was a result of the different instruments he played. There is documentation of him playing different Conn(rotary valve) tubas, an orginal Saunders(not to be confused with current Sanders) tuba, as well as an F tuba probably a Saunders also. He was adamant about the mouthpiece matching the instrument and when he sold a tuba the mouthpiece went with that horn. Helleberg was the premier player of his day. His dates are 1861-1936.

LV wrote:

Billy M. wrote:Fair enough evaluation for the evolution theory, but tool cutting is a lot different from way back then... either one could be speculative.

Well, my "speculation" comes with 15 years of product and tool/machine engineering and design experience. Until a couple of very recent advances, the process have remained unchanged for a loooooooooong time.

Well on you then... LoL... just kidding.

Thanks Richard for the clarification.

The 7B is indeed a copy of the 20s Conn-Helleberg. One cutting tool was used for over 20 years and variations understandably exist.... The Conn-Helleberg and UMI Helleberg "Standard" are copies of Conn's "original" production line Helleberg - the "Model H" - produced before the 20s Conn-Hellebergs and a somewhat larger mouthpiece. Both the "Model H" and a faithful replica of the 20s-30s (featuring outer as well as inner dimensions) are in progress. See www.hauganmusic.com for future details.

LV wrote:

Billy M. wrote:Fair enough evaluation for the evolution theory, but tool cutting is a lot different from way back then... either one could be speculative.

Well, my "speculation" comes with 15 years of product and tool/machine engineering and design experience. Until a couple of very recent advances, the process have remained unchanged for a loooooooooong time.

I'll second that. There is no way a change in a mp design can be attributed to 'tool wear'. ... and I've got 30 years of manufacturing/tool design experience!

V-Man wrote:I'm under the impression that the helleberg's used today isn't the same helleberg that Arnold Jacobs used. If so, which kind of helleberg did he use and is it still being sold today ??

A previous poster suggested that Helleberg developed a mouthpiece for every one of the horns that he played. I'll bet also that he developed several mouthpieces for each of the instruments he played over a long period. Each one is different, but they are all Helleberg mouthpieces in the strictest sense.

But the term "Helleberg" has come to designate a whole class of mouthpieces that are predominantly funnel-shaped. Thus, when someone says "Helleberg mouthpieces", it could mean

1. A Conn Helleberg or Helleberg 7B,
2. A mouthpiece designed by August Helleberg, or
3. A mouthpiece in the Helleberg style.

Arnold Jacobs played a lot of different mouthpieces, but I've seen several current models that claimed to be duplicates of the models he played. The Canadian Brass Jacobs model is one such.

And for those who described the PT-44 as being an evolved version of the Helleberg, they are right. But every mouthpiece on the low end of the list, from PT-50 on down, is derived from the Helleberg concept. The mouthpieces numbered higher are cup-shaped mouthpieces, just like the Bach 18 and a host of others.

Rick "who figures Arnold Jacobs's mouthpiece would probably not help him much" Denney

I use the 7B on both my 184 CC and my 182 F. For me, it works just fine on both instruments, throughout the range. I really wanted one piece for both, because I have enough trouble switching instruments without also switching mouthpieces.

MA