TubeNet

Hi all.

Like the subject says. If I'm in the wrong forum, please let me know!

I have a silver plated BBb 4 valve, Frank Holton sousy. Complete, in really good shape, plays, though the 4th valve stem has come loose from valve body. (and I'm pretty sure 3 of the valve caps are from a later model)

This horn belonged to my Father. He contacted Leblanc years ago, and the general gist of things is that they made few of these horns and that it was likely made in 1923.

Is this a rare instrument? Is it worth more than the "average bear"? I contacted the Holton loyalist, but received no response. Searched the 'net, but not much info there either.

Any information about the *possible* value, history etc. of this horn would be helpful.

TIA,

OT.

A few quick pics.

Enjoy!

OT

KiltieTuba wrote:That looks great!
Does it have a 26 inch bell?
Any idea on bore size?

It would probably fetch a pretty penny...

Thanks. Yah it's in pretty good shape, though there are *minor* dings. (though nothing major that I've noticed yet)

I just measured bell: ~ 25 7/8", so yah. 26" bell.

ID of 1st valve slide is 19mm (~ .748")

1st and 3rd slides are the same, 4th is slightly larger ID. Same as smaller leg of main slide.

To be clear to this list, I am not sure if I will sell it. There are memories attached to this horn.

Oceantuba wrote: To be clear to this list, I am not sure if I will sell it. There are memories attached to this horn.

Unless you're hurting for cash, it probably isn't the best time to be selling a high end sousaphone anyway. I suppose my Conn 40K may be worth 2-3K$, in good times, but if I really wanted to sell it now, say before the end of the year ... don't know, significantly less.

I've been told that in their day, the market for these sousaphones was working tuba players who would use them for everything - dance bands, concert bands, whatever - and they took them pretty seriously, hence the occasional 4-valve model. Today the picture is a little different with respect to the sousaphone, and working tuba players for that matter, so while it's hard to sell an expensive tuba in this economy, it's even harder to sell an expensive sousaphone.

Might be a good time to get that 4th valve fixed, though. Someone here could probably recommend a good local repairman.

KiltieTuba wrote:Just saying, if you were to sell you could probably get a couple grand for it. Big bore sousaphone with a manageable bell and four valves - on top of the rarity - if ya did sell it.

I've seen pictures of similar 4 valve Holtons, but not with that configuration.

For sure. Was being clear to this list as a whole about my thoughts on possibly selling it.

Seems it's a somewhat rare beast judging from responses here.

OT

Kiltietuba, Donn and Bloke.

Thanks. I appreciate the insights. i.e. I hadn't considered who some of the buyers might be. As for swapping the valve cluster out to another horn, I'd rather continue to trip over the monster case it lives in before allowing that. And for sure. The market itself is limited even in the best of times. I can see how that and a depressed economy would limit the amount of potential buyers even more.

I'm a bass trombonist mainly, but have doubled on tenor and Tuba over the years. Most of the Tuba work was "wall paper" dixie music for conventions and such, with some jingles/sessions thrown in for good measure. Over time I found the sousaphone most enjoyable for the dixie wall paper stuff. Ironically, my English made B&H Oxford plays quite well and the smaller bore is certainly more "doubler friendly". But...... maybe I'd be better off selling the B&H and putting that money toward repairing the Holton 4th valve. The larger bore on a Tuba is not my preference, based upon past experience as a doubler, but I could live with it. But...... as has been said, the economy is a challenge and that type of freelance work has dropped by the wayside, so who's gonna play anymore Dixie anyway? Wah. Boo hoo.

OT.

Ah, well ... this particular model is a mystery to me, and evidently to the rest of us as well, so while we're assuming it really is a good one, we don't know! Your B&H may be a superior instrument in some respects - 4 valves and a large bore don't mean that much - and it is not by any means a safe bet that you'd be better off in the long run playing the Holton. Though based on the one old large bore Holton I've seen, I'd say it's probably a keeper.

Well in terms of how it plays, here's the funny part.

In recent memory, I played it *once* on a gig. Ironically, the gig paid *really* well (tv commercial shoot. Gotta love resids). Of course the 4th valve just sat there unused.... But the horn looked good! Most of it was just us miming. Or rather, standing around in our fetid sailors outfits waiting to mime. They recorded some "wild" tracks live, but IIRC, they weren't used. (The band did sound good, but I think the techs were just trying to look busy and recorded us in the down time during the shoot....But I digress.)

It may very well play great. It seemed fine to me at the time. Too little playing to tell and I had trombone face at the time. As to it being rare, my dad didn't make lengthy notes on his correspondence with Leblanc years back, but the gist of it is that Holton made few, of these and they might have been a special order of some kind. I searched around some more in my file cabinet and found correspondence I eluded to before. Sorry for not posting the info first. Here 'tis

On a piece of orange-ie/yellow Leblanc note paper sent back to my dad:

"Low Pitch Mammoth Holtanphone, Finish D - Silver w/gold bell. Made 12/3/23"

(the bell may well have been replated. I don't see the gold finish)

My dad's handwritting on that note: "Four valve can't be remembered. Very few (exceedingly few) four valve horns were made. Mine is prob the only one!"

There is also another note, by his hand, with "PAS 6093 Paramount Records. Jack Daniels Original (can't read) in concert. I googled this and it got a hit. Maybe this horn was used way back to record, but according to this web page

http://www.bsnpubs.com/dot/paramount.html

the recording was "PAS-6093 - Jack Daniels Silver Cornet Band - Jack Daniels Silver Cornet Band [1974] " which doesn't make sense as he purchased the horn in the early - mid 50's.

The thot plickens......

OT

bloke wrote:As far as general comments go, I've noticed this:

- Very few band directors are interested in "4-valve" or "good old" sousaphones. You'll find the vast majority of band directors in one of several camps: the King camp; the short-action-Conn camp; the Jupiter-is-cheapest camp; the whatever-is-cheapest camp; & the I-want-contras camp...but more overwhelmingly the they-all-need-to-be-the-same-color camp.

I have wondered a bit about the size of this band:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRmFS1nNmtQ

For a non-DC band it looks huge. The sousaphones don’t match in colour, which bothers me much less than their not always lining well up left-right. And then there is a special attraction to the lone sousaphone in the second last row.

The insane number of alto and tenor saxes also wonders me. Is this a massed band letting its double reeds march saxophones?

Klaus

Oceantuba wrote: "Low Pitch Mammoth Holtanphone, Finish D - Silver w/gold bell. Made 12/3/23"

(the bell may well have been replated. I don't see the gold finish)

That would be inside - standard finish back then, silver with a "gold wash" inside the bell. From what I understand, it's really a silver plate with the barest hint of gold deposited on top. Probably the silver plating inside the bell looks a bit yellower than outside, after nearly a century of polishing etc.

Bloke is correct that there are a few people who are interested in these (I am not one of them), and the more history you can dredge up, the more you'll be able to attract their interest. As with anything that might have collector value, step one is identifying a prospect list, and you've already started building that by posting information here. I suspect nearly all potential buyers will see it here.

The instrument is in really good condition, it seems to me, even with the stuck fourth valve. I'm surprised the instrument could play at all with the fourth valve halfway down, though. The stem looks bent to me and I suspect that it was bumped on something--it is in a vulnerable position--and could be put to rights just by bending it back straight. (Go to far, of course, and it will break. Maybe leave the bending for a tech if that makes you nervous.) I have had that happen on my instruments, including my Holton that has similar valves.

I doubt the bell was changed, as hinted by another poster. The bell flare being clocked a bit to the right of the plane of the bend would put the label top-dead-center when the instrument is held properly.

You may not see a gold wash--those were soft, extremely thin, and easy to polish away by accident.

If you do decide to sell it, you'll have to court potential collectors, and wait for one of them to be ready, depending on how you price it. It's potential market value, as with most things attractive to only a dedicated few, is so variable as to be impossible to predict. If it plays remotely in tune--not a foregone conclusion with any mammoth sousaphone or tuba--then it should not be worth any less than a good Conn 20K in similar condition, which might get as much as $1500-2000. Taylor music prices them with an econo-overhaul at closer to $3K. Hopefully that will give you some idea of how to proceed.

Rick "who has neither the room nor the shoulder for big sousaphones" Denney

Are there more photos available than the 3 on the first page?

I see some conclusions, which I would find hard to make from just these said 3 photos.

Klaus

[quote="Rick Denney"]...


The instrument is in really good condition, it seems to me, even with the stuck fourth valve. I'm surprised the instrument could play at all with the fourth valve halfway down, though. The stem looks bent to me and I suspect that it was bumped on something--it is in a vulnerable position--and could be put to rights just by bending it back straight. (Go to far, of course, and it will break. Maybe leave the bending for a tech if that makes you nervous.) I have had that happen on my instruments, including my Holton that has similar valves.

I doubt the bell was changed, as hinted by another poster. The bell flare being clocked a bit to the right of the plane of the bend would put the label top-dead-center when the instrument is held properly.

You may not see a gold wash--those were soft, extremely thin, and easy to polish away by accident.

....../quote]


Thanks for the info. True. The gold wash may have been "washed off" Not sure. I just recall a possible replate.

The bell is adjustable. Not sure what the speculation is re: bell flare.

As posted, the 4th valve stem came loose. It has "fallen" into valve body. Piston itself is not stuck.

OT. (who has to run out the door.... I may open it first )

Thanks for links guys.

I hadn't thought to search using "holtanphone" or "mammoth holtonphone" . Like duh.

Interesting and helpful. Quick scan sez 30" bell. Mine is not that. My eyes are goofy (optometrist) but will read it later.

Bloke/Rick Denny: that gives me a ball park idea about the value of this thing. Thanks.

Hrender: For sure. That line will be my future marketing strategy. ...... or just a line for the girls.

Another Holton Mammoth sousaphone tidbit:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Antique-Musi ... aphone.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank

OT.

Oceantuba wrote: Bloke/Rick Denny: that gives me a ball park idea about the value of this thing. Thanks.

um ... I wouldn't take bloke's offer as an approximation of its value, rather as a valuable clue. I also think there's a good chance it's worth considerably more than a Conn 20K, which is an OK tuba but so common that the market is tough - if you think someone's asking too much for one, you may as well just wait for another to come along. While I doubt you actually have the world's only 4 valve Holtonphone there, when you put it up for sale, it could very well be the only chance at one most of us will have in our lives. The problem is just, most of us won't care, so you will need to reach the few people who do (and I personally think only a small fraction of them are likely to be reading Tubenet regularly.) The selling price will be a function of that more than anything else, in my opinion.

Donn wrote:
um ... I wouldn't take bloke's offer as an approximation of its value, rather as a valuable clue. I also think there's a good chance it's worth considerably more than a Conn 20K, which is an OK tuba but so common that the market is tough - if you think someone's asking too much for one, you may as well just wait for another to come along.

I understand. Thanks.

Donn wrote: While I doubt you actually have the world's only 4 valve Holtonphone there, when you put it up for sale, it could very well be the only chance at one most of us will have in our lives. The problem is just, most of us won't care, so you will need to reach the few people who do (and I personally think only a small fraction of them are likely to be reading Tubenet regularly.) The selling price will be a function of that more than anything else, in my opinion.

Aw shucks. And here I thought I'd get famous for having the only one.

With all due respect to list members here, IF I ever did sell it, I'd be curious about putting it up on eSchmay with a high reserve. But.... that whole process sounds risky at the best of times (yes I was burned once there).

What I should do is get the 4th valve fixed and give a honk for a while. I'll be done with my current gig soon enough, so I'll have time to "blow my face in" a bit on the Tuba.

OT.

Normally you (bloke) wouldn’t waste any interest in a Holton sousaphone. But this one has a larger bore and then an even larger bore through the 4th valve tubing. Our own sousaphone valve blocks are uni-bore (0.730" or so) all through the first branch of the main tuning slide (bloke used a 40K block for his pimpophone).

I like the 40K for its projecting and quite majestic sound, even if I have heard a King and some Conn’s with audibly larger bores. I would like hearing this large Holton with tight and well working valves. I won’t buy it alone for lack of space in my home. Yet it would be very interesting to hear it well documented in a recording.

Klaus

imperialbari wrote:..... I would like hearing this large Holton with tight and well working valves. I won’t buy it alone for lack of space in my home. Yet it would be very interesting to hear it well documented in a recording.

Klaus

Well I'll be done with my current gig soon enough. Though Tuba isn't my primary instrument, maybe I could hang up one of my cheap off shore Telefunken tube mikes and lay down a track or two with this horn. I would guess that these valves aren't too loose. Still a bit of pop, and that's with them dry.

Hell if I'm in a good mood, maybe I'll write up some kind of 4 part thing.

OT.

From what little is showing. The few braces I see and the casings tell me: yup, its a Holton.
Now, Ian, quit lurking in the storage and get back to your studies.


D.C. Oberloh

Okay... Let me settle this.

The exact value of your Holton 4v Sousa is $50. Everyone has been pulling your leg! So, let me offer you 200% it's value. $100 and I'll pay for shipping!



Naw... I have no idea. I'd love one of my own though.