TubeNet

I have a problem that has been going on for a while. In August I contracted with someone to build me an instrument in exchange for a tuba and a valve set, which I shipped and know was received (yes, I've learned my lesson). The instrument was promised to be delivered by end of September at the latest but never arrived. All subsequent emails have either been ignored or filled with excuses. At best, the guy is a terrible businessman - at worst a scam artist. Now the only acceptable resolution is payment for my tuba, valve set and shipping costs. I know the person is a member of Tubenet. Do I make his name public which will trash his reputation? How long do I wait before taking him to court?

August is really not that long ago, if you contracted to actually have an instrument built. We are not talking about rolling out a bell crease. Some guys on this board wait four years for an overhaul. I ordered a mouthpiece this summer. Pulled the plug on the order after two months of excuses. Ordered it again a while back from a different source. Still waiting, though no fault of the seller - he can't sell what he doesn't receive.

I would say sit tight. IMHO, a year would not be out of line at all for such a request.

Whatever you do, don't try to resolve it here. Tubenet is not equipped to know or assess truth in such matters, and has no role in arbitrating such disputes. There is every probability that making it public here would make matters worse than should be the case--for someone.

I agree with Marty that everything like this takes longer than one expects. Doing something like this requires an attitude of quality, and that requires the proper motivation. Sometimes, it takes time for a craftsman to get going on this sort of a project. The more you lean, the less likely that motivation will come. Pulling is more likely to succeed. For example: Offer to come help.

This is not like ordering a car with a special options list.

I have never been able to schedule creativity, and I suspect that is true for most who get into doing this sort of custom work. That is especially true if two people want me to be creative at the same time and I only have time to make one happy.

Story: I once led the design of a traffic signal system in a major city, and the project involved custom software development (this has been true for a number of projects I've led, so that description doesn't really narrow it down much). The physical part of the project was done in a year, but the software took four or five years. I was asked what I might have done to speed the project along, and my answer was, "adjust my expectations." I could have had it faster by expecting a lesser product, or I could get the product I needed and wanted if I was willing to wait for it. That choice wouldn't be necessary in a perfect world, but in a perfect world, you'd know how to make your own cimbasso.

If you come to believe that the technician really is scamming you, then take legal action. The courts have tools for resolving such disputes; public Internet forums do not.

Rick "whose experience suggests that friendly prodding and offers of help get more done than veiled threats and public attacks" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:Whatever you do, don't try to resolve it here. Tubenet is not equipped to know or assess truth in such matters, and has no role in arbitrating such disputes. There is every probability that making it public here would make matters worse than should be the case--for someone.

Elegantly worded!!!!!

+1 for contacting the builder directly.

Tuba Guy wrote: Now the only acceptable resolution is payment for my tuba, valve set and shipping costs.

Sounds to me like Tuba Guy no longer wants a Cimbasso, so waiting for the creative urge to strike may be a moot point.

Geez, 3 months isn't very long for a service requiring design and highly skilled execution.
Don't know the initial discussions, but I could guess real disconnect on "timing/deliverables"
1. Have you spoken to him/her?
2. Are you expecting an art/tech creation or have you supplied detailed drawings?

In fact. . .why would you expect a "Cimbasso maker" that doesn't already have inventory (or deliverable designs) to respond that quicKly?

I've often been on the other side of this.

We as techs always want to work very fast. It doesn’t often happen on a custom fabrication, especially if we want to turn out something we're proud of.

Mass production manufacturers (Conn/Selmer) and even custom makers (Shires, Thein, etc.) have specialized tooling and a dedicated mission and staff to execute a fabrication. A custom job would still take longer, but it's all they do, and they have the tooling to easily make each part. And you’ll still wait 6-8 weeks.

Very high-end makers (Rob Stewart et al.) also are well tooled, and are also more focused on fabrication than others. 6 months for some is completely reasonable.

I have 10 hour weeks, and entirely too many projects. I do my best to make everyone happy, but I always tell them there's a difference between what I will try to accomplish and often what actually does happen. Making a new bell for a historic instrument? If no other repairs came in, I could finish it within a month. But you're more likely to have it in 14 months.

Three months is an absurdly short amount of time to make a non-standardized piece of equipment. Truly, while somewhat easier than a bell from sheet brass, it's a large, creative undertaking, and requires a great deal of experimentation and trying different configurations. I might be able to get it to you within a year. And I’d try to be clear – I will do my best, I want it done as much as you do, but I will keep you up to date.

Sounds like a big project. If you have a performance it’s needed for, that’s the strongest motivation. Not something you’d like to use it for, but for something you need (Tosca).

Keep in touch, be nice, and if you have a pressing engagement, let the maker know. That will get frank answers.

J.c.S.

It seems to me that tubaguy's issue is that he is feeling that he is getting the run-around.

Bob Kolada wrote:It seems to me that tubaguy's issue is that he is feeling that he is getting the run-around.

Thank you Bob. This is more along the lines of what we feel could be happening. I have been told that the horn was completed and shipped, but he never had a confirmation number to be able to send us, and had been slow on returning any emails.
I have been pm'd by the tubenetter, and we are working to clear this situation up.

Bob Kolada wrote:It seems to me that tubaguy's issue is that he is feeling that he is getting the run-around.

Here's how it looks to me: The customer is nervous and isn't getting the response he wants, so he posts on Tubenet, which he knows the tech will read, with the (not so) implied threat that any further prevarication could result in a nasty public attack. He probably didn't intend it that way, but that's how the tech will have received it. We hear that the tech has given the runaround and promised this and that. Maybe it happened that way, maybe there was a misunderstanding, maybe it's BS. I don't know and don't care. But the threat and the results it brings will very often have little relationship to truth, or to what really should happen. I've seen it often enough in situations where I knew the facts to know that the results are usually disproportionate and often just plain unfair.

I get on this soap box every now and again, and everyone usually accuses me of being a jerk about it. After all, shouldn't people be able to air their grievances in public if they have been screwed? Um, no. Even if it sometimes works.

Rick "ends not justifying the means and all that" Denney