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My apologies if this seems vague, but this comes up in conversation often and was wondering what other people thought...

Assuming that everyone wants to sound the best that they can on whatever instrument they choose regardless of brand, key, make, etc.
There seems to be differing schools of thought when it comes to bass tuba and contrabass tuba pairing.
Either you choose a bass tuba that is very similar or even an extension of what your sound concept is on contrabass OR you go more in the direction of two very different (and maybe complimentary) sound concepts for each instrument. Some (or most) people may even not consider this at all and just find two of the best instruments that they can - I don't know, but I am interested in opinions from people who have thought about this.

Am I being clear? Does this make sense?

Thanks,
Chris

I voted for the "different" option, though I don't think they need to be polar opposites. I would prefer that they are somewhat similar in sound, but that the difference is obvious (size, sound at high volume,....). I would probably go for a 3/4 F and a large Bb to maximize the sound/range/... differences, though the horns I would personally choose are not terribly different (type of) sound-wise.


FWIW, my "bass tuba" is a small Eb and my "contrabass tuba" is a very large Eb and they do sound quite different though that is most likely due to the mouthpieces I use (shallow 30mm on the small, regular contrabass sized on the big). I suppose I should get out my euph, unfreeze the valves, and see how it compares to the two others.

Try as I might, I still sound like me on whatever horn I'm on. I happen to prefer playing bass to playing contrabass, but am at home on each. I'm currently using a big CC (Willson 3050S), big F (Willson 3200S), and a small F (Cerveny 653). I choose which one to use based on the "size" of the sound I believe is appropriate to the situation I'm playing in. For small ensembles and chamber music, I use the Cerveny most because the breadth of tone isn't too overwhelming. For larger ensembles (i.e. bands and orchestra) I use either the CC or big F, again, because of the "size" of the sound it produces. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else, but it's not so much that the tone quality itself is very different, but that the breadth/"size" of sound is different.

To me... they should contrast and complement each other. Like Bob said, not total opposites, but not too close either. A big CC and a small F are good...to me.

It seems to me, that if you have a "matched set" of bass-contrabass instruments, the only advantage/reason for using the bass, would be security in the upper register (not that there is anything wrong with that...).

I prefer to include some diversity of tone color with my choice of bass tuba, in addition to any security gains I get at high altitudes.
It broadens my tonal palette, just a little bit.

bloke wrote:I make no conscious effort to sound different on my various tubas. I just blow 'em. They sound like me, but various versions of "me".

Yes. Me playing a Holton. Me playing a B&S. One can't separate the performer from the tool completely.

And I do prefer that my "me playing B&S" sound is different than my "me playing Holton" sound. Otherwise, why have two instruments?

Rick "light and clear for quintet, massive and colorful (and clear) for band" Denney

When performing, I'm most concerned with crafting the very best tone relative to the situation at hand. With good technique my beloved Holton EEb can blow the roof off with the full, bottomless tone of a contra CC...or delicately mingle with the rest of the ensemble with the deft, precise touch of a bass F...and anything in between.

I do think there is something to be said for having a variety of basses in a concert band setting. In my main ensemble I sit next to a giant Meinl-Weston CC and a King Recording BBb with my EEb--the blending of harmonics from our horns in different keys results in a massive wall of sound that's sonically much more interesting than if we were all on, for example, BBb horns.

I voted for difference in tone as that makes having the multiple tubas more worthwhile. That is one reason why I decided to play a German F as my bass tuba - that glorious lyrical tone which is quite different from the broader rich tone of my 6/4 Neptune C.

However, if that is not the intent then there are bass tubas that sound more contrabass and vice versa. My PT-3 3/4 C to me sounds more bass tuba like, while a Besson Soveriegn EEb leans towards contrabass in tone.

bloke wrote:....address an earlier comment) what is the technical definition of a "matched set" of bass/contrabass tubas?

No particular definition....just picking instruments that match as much as possible, in tone quality.

I remember reading a while back, that some folks here have acquired actual "matching instruments" such as: Willson CC & Eb, Miraphone BBb & F, ...etc., in the quest to erase the difference between horns.

Z-Tuba Dude wrote:some folks here have acquired actual "matching instruments"

One of the attractions of the B&S PT-15 F which made me decide to purchase was its similarity in 'feel' to my B&S Neptune C. However, that does not mean they sound anything alike (except both are large tubas).

I think we all have certain characteristics we prefer which we use when selecting both bass and contrabass tuba

Neptune wrote:I think we all have certain characteristics we prefer which we use when selection both bass and contrabass tuba

I guess it is just a matter of whether one wants their bass tuba to have a distictive sound, or if they want it to sound like their contrabass....just higher.

Z-Tuba Dude wrote:

Neptune wrote:I think we all have certain characteristics we prefer which we use when selection both bass and contrabass tuba

I guess it is just a matter of whether one wants their bass tuba to have a distictive sound, or if they want it to sound like their contrabass....just higher.

Agreed.

I looked for a bass tuba that blended well in an ensemble/orchestra for use in appropriate repertoire such as parts originally written for ophicleide, parts that specify bass tuba (Bruckner, Wagner, Mahler, etc.), and parts in small ensembles (quintets, quartets, etc.). The bass tuba sound in my head was a warm tone, but not as weighty as my contrabass (Nirschl CC). (BTW. "warm" does not equal "bland" in my head. That virtually eliminated one brand, in my experiences.) What I was NOT searching for was a brighter, soloistic type of horn. I don't enjoy playing solo tuba as much as someone else might, but I love being part of an ensemble.

I was open to the selection of either an F or E-flat tuba. I played some F tubas that were very beautiful in their own right, but didn't really possess the trait that I mentioned above. They had their own sound color which was meritorious as a solo instrument, with marvelous playing characteristics--so much so that I almost purchased one or two of them.

Ultimately, I chose a Besson 983. It is tone-wise just was I searched for: warm but colorful throughout its range. Even though I've studied with a well-known tubist whose primary bass tuba for orchestra AND solo work is a Besson 3+1 E-flat, and even though I've done a fair amount of brass band playing where a 3+1 arrangement would be the norm, I am more comfortable with the 4-valve front-action of the 983. Its compensating system works extremely well--excellent intonation without any sense of "stuffiness" in playing. The only thing that the 983 lacks is great slotting higher than G above the staff, thus making Bydlo more challenging on this horn than on some F tubas that I tried where that high G# is, as John Hardisky expressed it, "to die for." But I was reassured that those notes could be achieved musically with the 983 because the solo recordings performed by the man himself who helped design the 983, Pat Sheridan, contained plenty of high G#'s and higher (e.g. the last note of Serenade from The Student Prince, which Pat performed in the key of D-flat Major). Of course, I'm no Pat Sheridan, but it proved to me that this tuba should be capable of anything required of a bass tuba if played with the appropriate mouthpiece and a sufficiently practiced and prepared player (hmmm..I've got lots of work to do... ). Also, I was granted a very favorable price by my 983's former owner, who knew that it would be given a loving home and player.

I guess it's a matter of 'need'...

Whatever your main horn is (bass or contrabass), it's my preference that your other horn should pick up where your main horn stops being the most effective. This way, the listener doesn't hear much difference, and the transition from one horn to the other for you, is minimal.

My main horn (ever since I bought it) has been a Besson 983 Eb. I've bought and sold a number of CC's until I finally found out (mostly through COSTLY trial and error), what kind of horn would be a the perfect extension of it. It's a 4/4 contrabass (piston), that gives more stability and volume in the lower range of the instrument.

My 983 Eb's low range is great, for a bass tuba (better than some CC's I've played). No problem notes, no intonation challenges, but it's hard to crank out the volume and keep notes the same timbre as I cross into the pedal register. I just need a horn that 'thrives' at the point where my Eb leaves off. At this point, I'm leaning towards a 4/4 Hirsbrunner (piston), or a 4/4 Nirschl; or perhaps one of those THOR's...

My other problem is, "do I really 'need' another horn at this point in my life?" But that's another story, another time...

Lately, I've been using the Kaiser as my main contra axe (except for small groups) and a York Monster Eb as my bass. The York has a much broader tone, but I actually have more trouble filling it up than the Kaiser (yeah...figure that one out). When the York is properly filled, it has a very good warm American sound. The Kaiser sounds German, as long as there's enough air going through it. I like how each individual tuba sounds, and I think they each fill their own place. I'm not going to start doing Petrouchka on the contra (it's more secure on the York) or Meistersingers on the bass (even though that is a more comfortable range for that horn), but I think it's good to be able to have that difference in sound concept if I need. I'm not saying that if the need arose I wouldn't use one of these horns, I just think if there's a choice, at certain times a particular tuba will give more of the sound that I want.
Granted, if I want to use a BAT, I'll just grab the Martin, or if I need a German bass sound, I could bring the cimbasso or a smaller mouthpiece or something, but I think the important part is just to make each individual tuba sound its best. If you like the tuba enough, you'll figure out what its particular sound is and make that work.

Tuba Guy wrote:Lately, I've been using the Kaiser as my main contra axe

I am so pleased the Cerveny is getting used!

Neptune wrote:

Tuba Guy wrote:Lately, I've been using the Kaiser as my main contra axe

I am so pleased the Cerveny is getting used!

I love that tuba. It's so different to play than anything else, but after playing it all of my other horns just sound that much better. I think I will definitely learn a lot with this horn, and it's getting to the point of being a lot of fun to play (instead of a lot of work...amazing how a couple mods-leadpipe height and a mouthpiece shank adapter-did wonders for my playing with it).

bloke wrote:I believe (in particular) Roger Bobo has even referred to this in his writings (how these big-belled Eb tubas sound "pretty" - no matter how you blow into them).

I actually disagree with that. Yorkie can get a good edge on his sound if I want, and that actually sounds pretty good in the right context. A bit more of a Bobo power concept, but on the right pieces or situations, it sounds damn good (other times, I wouldn't think of touching that edge...it's nice for the horn to be that versitile)

As part of a large tuba section of 5-7 tubas of different pitches, I want my contrabass tuba to provide a "sea of sound".
Based on this foundation, I´d want my bass tuba to work like a whale jumping out of that sea, occasionally.
To use a different picture, maybe more to the point: Imagine a large forest of trees growing to 30 m of height. They may all be of the same species. Then, imagine ONE tree growing in that forest that is of a different species, growing to 50 m.

Our director prefers ALL tubas to contribute to this sea of sound. No whales, here.
He makes a point of having super-large BBb and EEb tubas in the section.
Which is why the only f-tubist, playing a Viennese-valved small F, is getting strange looks occasionally.

On the other hand, when the music called for a vituous bass tuba acting as a whale in this concept, our 1st chair tubist switched from his Besson 3+1 EEb comper to a Miraphone Norwegian Star Eb 5 valver.

Last Sunday I used my 184 and 983 on a quintet concert - switching back and forth for what I perceived to be maximum suitability for each piece, and concluding on the Eb for Stars and Stripes to facilitate the piccolo trills. Only after we were done and we were "tearing down," the 2nd trumpet guy noticed I was packing up 2 horns and expressed surprise. "I didn't know you brought 2 horns. Which one did you play?" sez he.

I think he was serious.