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Hi all,

I'm in the process of deciding which BBb tuba I want to buy.
I've had a Willson 3100 FA-5 for trial --> great big sound, excellent pistons, heavy, due to size difficult to play staccato notes quicly (slower response)
I also tried a Miraphone 191 4 rotary valves --> much lighter, also much easier to play soft and quick than the one above, for me the sound was a little too small for larger bands but would be excellent for 'blaskapelle' (german word, you call it polka band or something like that?)

This week I have the Willson 3100 RZ-4 for trial:
- 4 rotax valves = very light valve action, no noise at all
- valve spatulas are placed more ergonomically than the pistons on the 3100 FA-5
- reaching the 1st valve slide is easy, so I don't need a 5th valve
- same big sound available like 3100 FA-5.
- My mouthpiece (Tilz WH B2) goes in the receiver 5mm less deep than on the FA-5.
- For me, it combines the good qualities of the 3100 FA-5 and the Miraphone 191...

So I think we might have a winner

I will try it this evening in a 'blaskapelle', on friday in our 50pcs band and I'll take it to my tuba teacher on tuesday to know his comments.

I attached some hornporn (yes, I spent some hours polishing the kaiser to get it to look like this)

Wim

Cool! Those BBb's are beasts! How does it compare to your kaiser?

I'd be curious to see a pic of you playing the WIllson to check out how your right hand lines up with the paddles. Huge problem for me with the CC version of that axe that required some pretty spendy surgery on the horn.

...Dave

Any pictures of the RZ next to the 191?

jonesbrass wrote:Cool! Those BBb's are beasts! How does it compare to your kaiser?

How about +2 kg?

Difficult to compare. They are each-others opposites in many ways.
The metal is about twice as thick on the willson, so the resonance is quite different.
On the kaiser you can literally feel every note coming out of the bell. The metal is so thin you could easily perform some dent-removal action with your bare hands. (also bigger risk of making new dents).

The Willson sounds bigger, with less effort to play louder, but less noticeable to the player.
I don't care that much about that, because it's just a matter of getting used to.

The Willson's slides are nickel silver (inner and outer), as is the leadpipe.

The bore on the kaiser is almost 2mm bigger. (being 19,5mm on the Willson)
Also the leadpipe bore is smaller on the Willson 3100 RZ-4. The FA-5 and kaiser are almost identical there.
I address the better response on the RZ-4 compared to the FA-5 at least for a part to this leadpipe bore difference.
I'll leave it up to the specialists to discuss that.

Wim

poomshanka wrote:I'd be curious to see a pic of you playing the WIllson to check out how your right hand lines up with the paddles. Huge problem for me with the CC version of that axe that required some pretty spendy surgery on the horn.

...Dave

What did you have changed on yours?
I'll try to put up a pic later.

Wim

Bob Kolada wrote:Any pictures of the RZ next to the 191?

No, I did not have them at the same time.

WoW! Wim those are both beautiful horns!! Is the Kaiser a BBb to??who made your Kaiser??Does it have a big dent in the bow??if so does that effect the sound??Thank You.BigBob

bigbob wrote:WoW! Wim those are both beautiful horns!! Is the Kaiser a BBb to??who made your Kaiser??Does it have a big dent in the bow??if so does that effect the sound??Thank You.BigBob

Yes the kaiser is a BBb, and was made probably by Bohland & Fuchs (that went into Amati/Cerveny after WWII).
It has a deep dent in the upper bow, and some nice wrinkles in the bell.
The deep dent possibly has a leak, and it causes the horn to play very flat. The wrinkles in the bell only cause some ring or resonance.
You can read about this horn and see pics of the damage here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31671&hilit=german+kaiser+wim

Wim

tuben wrote:I've always thought the Willson CC & BBb tubas would be WORLDS better if the metal were 1/2 as thick.... As is stands, they are SO large and SO dense that mere mortals can't put enough energy into them to bring the sound to life.

RC

I understand what you're saying there, but I also believe (from personal experience) that there is a big difference between what the player hears from a Willson, and what the audience hears. I see it as a matter of efficiency.

oedipoes wrote: The Willson sounds bigger, with less effort to play louder, but less noticeable to the player.
I don't care that much about that, because it's just a matter of getting used to.

oedipoes wrote:What did you have changed on yours?

Prior to buying my WIllson, I did a little asking around about the axe. Ergonomics was the one beef everyone seemed to have, as did I. Our local brass guru, Robb Stewart, made the switches for me. Ran around $800-$900, as I recall, and worked great. A PDF showing the mods can be found here:

http://www.daveamason.com/willson/wills ... evised.pdf" target="_blank

Agreed on the horn not providing much feedback under the bell, but it sure projects like crazy. I found the piston 3050 I played back-to-back with mine to be a much different instrument. The low register on the rotary axe was *much* quicker than the piston horn, and overall, the piston horn seemed a little spongier, both in feel and in sound produced. Everyone who heard and played the two horns felt the same way. Based on my own limited experience, the RZs have a leaner, more muscular sound than their piston brethren, but no less broad and powerful.

...Dave

poomshanka wrote:Based on my own limited experience, the RZs have a leaner, more muscular sound than their piston brethren, but no less broad and powerful.

That was exactly my experience comparing the 3200 piston F tuba with the 3200R, which I preferred (but was prepared to afford).

Rick "who'd like to try out a 3100R someday" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:

poomshanka wrote:Based on my own limited experience, the RZs have a leaner, more muscular sound than their piston brethren, but no less broad and powerful.

That was exactly my experience comparing the 3200 piston F tuba with the 3200R, which I preferred (but was prepared to afford).

Rick "who'd like to try out a 3100R someday" Denney

The RZ-4 is about 1000EUR more than the FA-5...

Silver plating is the same price as lacquer.
Anyone has a good reason for choosing lacquer vs. silver? (Sound is not a good reason)
I'm talking about maintenance, repair, .... ?

Wim

poomshanka wrote:I'd be curious to see a pic of you playing the WIllson to check out how your right hand lines up with the paddles. Huge problem for me with the CC version of that axe that required some pretty spendy surgery on the horn.

...Dave

Dave,

See picture.
I put my right thumb under the 2nd valve slide, not through the thumb ring, that's all.
Feels 100% ergonomic to me, but I'll report if not, after some time.
The only strange thing is the 'cheap' black plastic on the valve spatulas. I like the looks of the metal ones on your horn better.
I hope a new one will have the metal ones.

Wim

oedipoes wrote:Dave,

See picture.
I put my right thumb under the 2nd valve slide, not through the thumb ring, that's all.
Feels 100% ergonomic to me, but I'll report if not, after some time.
The only strange thing is the 'cheap' black plastic on the valve spatulas. I like the looks of the metal ones on your horn better.
I hope a new one will have the metal ones.

Wim

Ahh, one notable difference might be the fifth valve, which necessitates putting your thumb through the ring. I actually did put my thumb under the second valve when I didn't need it on the fifth valve, and that helped a bit. Might also be that my arms are somewhat longer, so my elbow sits lower relative to the paddles, thus requiring a bit more of a crimp in the wrist to line back up.

Yeah, the rotary 3050 CC DEG had out at the NAMM show a couple years ago had the black finger pads, which I didn't like as much. Of course, you could go totally custom and have small machine screws attached to some coins to use as button. Très chic!

I was sorry to let my horn go, but financial circumstances left me no choice. I remember the first time I brought it to wind ensemble rehearsal, folks were turning around to see what it was. Definitely a unique, powerful sound. Enjoy yours!

...Dave

thank you Wim for the kaiser info great pictures and answers to my questions.........................bigbob

Delighted that you have found what seems just the tuba for you Wim!

Looking at the Willson website, at 27.5 Ibs it does not sound outrageously heavy - about the same weight as a Neptune.

You must try and record it with digital recorder out front. In my experience a very good way to get feedback on its sound to the audience.

BTW Do you know how Rotax valves differ from normal rotary valves?

One silver plated 3100 RZ-4 on order.
12 weeks waiting, starting 1st week of january.

Wim

oedipoes wrote:One silver plated 3100 RZ-4 on order.
12 weeks waiting, starting 1st week of january.

Wim

Woo-hoo! Awesome, Wim!

Just an observation...

Looking at the photo and realising that there may be some distortion due to camera angle etc...

To me it looks like, by reaching around to grip the first valve slide, you are having to lean a bit to your right and raising your left shoulder which would compromise your breathing somewhat.

I know unsolicited "advice" is often not welcome. but could I suggest you try holding the instrument (in a practice session) so that you can keep your torso fully erect and see if it does free up your breathing a bit.

If I were to have one of these instruments I would be looking at a couple mods (probably more nicely done on a special order for a new one) and have the thumb ring relocated and consider some sort of "trigger" or such to manipulate that first valve slide.

It also looks a bit like you are leaning your head a bit to the right to be able to see past the bell with your left eye - again something which could compromise your playing. These are possibly very minor points but sometimes the very minor can make a big difference.

What a shame it is that we can not go to a dealer (as a routine matter) and have a tuba "made to measure" as one would with a suit which would almost always cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$ less than a new tuba.

Just suggestions and, OH YES, I am jealous!!!!!!!!