Page 1 of 2

What tuba is this?

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:10 pm
by sugawi
I came by this horn while I was searching for tuba at local stores. I'm looking for BBb and the price little to steep for me but this horn made me curious.

http://nickrailmusic.com/product/miscel ... ba-546.htm

3-valve bell upright, brass lacquer. Bell cut down to modify from Bb to C. Belonged to The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band.
I contacted the store and was told that they think this is a European tuba. Either Austria, Germany or Czech… probably Czech. The bell has no lacquer on it. The bell has probably been cut or replaced to go from Bb to C. The make was probably on the bell. There is a serial number on the second valve casing (#309).

Image

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:15 am
by Dan Schultz
It's not feasible to simply cut the bell of a BBb horn to make it a CC horn. It's a European horn alright. Probably an Amati.... and probably STILL a BBb.

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:59 am
by TubaRay
Is the title of this thread also the title of a Christmas song? If it isn't, it probably should be.

What tuba is this?
Which laid to rest
In my den is keeping....

Well, I guess I need to work on the words a bit.

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:35 pm
by sugawi
TubaTinker wrote:It's not feasible to simply cut the bell of a BBb horn to make it a CC horn. It's a European horn alright. Probably an Amati.... and probably STILL a BBb.
I emailed to the manager of the store and he insists that this is a C tuba.
Here is what he wrote back:

"The bell has definitely been cut or replaced. I’m not sure if any of the slides have been shortened as well. I played the horn; it’s in C. Not a bad player, either. The owner has no other information as it was given to him as a gift."

My question is, what will it take to convert BBb tuba to C? Or maybe it was a C horn to begin with?

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:52 pm
by Dan Schultz
sugawi wrote:..... My question is, what will it take to convert BBb tuba to C? Or maybe it was a C horn to begin with?
To make a BBb horn into a CC... you have to get rid of approximately 2 feet of the open bugle. And you can't do that by just cutting the bell. Also... all of the tuning circuits would have to be cut about 12%.

I have a 'gut feeling' that the tuba in question was originally a CC horn. Or.... perhaps the person doing the evaluation is not a tuba player and is using a transposing tuner set for Bb instruments. Who know???

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:05 pm
by Bob Kolada
TubaTinker wrote: To make a BBb horn into a CC... you have to get rid of approximately 2 feet of the open bugle. And you can't do that by just cutting the bell. Also... all of the tuning circuits would have to be cut about 12%.
How about one of those super tall Reynolds (putting a shorter bell from whatever on it)? There's probably close to a foot of difference height wise and there's also the less inside area of a smaller bell. Possibly this horn had a much taller bell and could have even been rather sharp to begin with. Or else the seller doesn't know what he is talking about. Either way works for me. :D

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:11 pm
by Dan Schultz
Bob Kolada wrote:
TubaTinker wrote: To make a BBb horn into a CC... you have to get rid of approximately 2 feet of the open bugle. And you can't do that by just cutting the bell. Also... all of the tuning circuits would have to be cut about 12%.
How about one of those super tall Reynolds (putting a shorter bell from whatever on it)? There's probably close to a foot of difference height wise and there's also the less inside area of a smaller bell. Possibly this horn had a much taller bell and could have even been rather sharp to begin with. Or else the seller doesn't know what he is talking about. Either way works for me. :D
No way. Cutting a bell has much LESS affect on the pitch than cutting the smaller bugle tubing. It has to do with something called 'bell effect' that I understand but can't explain. Maybe Rick Denny can take a shot at that! :)

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:40 pm
by sloan
sugawi wrote: Or maybe it was a C horn to begin with?
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:47 pm
by sloan
TubaTinker wrote:
No way. Cutting a bell has much LESS affect on the pitch than cutting the smaller bugle tubing. It has to do with something called 'bell effect' that I understand but can't explain. Maybe Rick Denny can take a shot at that! :)
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Bell+effect+brass

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:47 pm
by Wyvern
Likely an Amati ACB 222A

from website;
AMATI CC Tuba, standard model, 3 piston valves, 4/4 size, yellow brass finish, bore 16.2mm (.640"), bell 400mm (15.75"), height 885mm (34.85"), tuning slide waterkey, with additional BBb tuning slide, lacquer.
http://www.amati-denak.cz/produkty/cc-tubas/acb-222a

Maybe being supplied with BBb tuning slide caused the confusion?

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:50 pm
by imperialbari
I wondered about what would be the purpose of 3 valve CC tuba. No answer appears obvious to me.

However the Amati-Denak site tells they make such model:

http://www.amati.cz/produkty/cc-tubas/

Sadly no photo.

Klaus

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:15 pm
by sloan
Neptune wrote:Likely an Amati ACB 222A

from website;
AMATI CC Tuba, standard model, 3 piston valves, 4/4 size, yellow brass finish, bore 16.2mm (.640"), bell 400mm (15.75"), height 885mm (34.85"), tuning slide waterkey, with additional BBb tuning slide, lacquer.
http://www.amati-denak.cz/produkty/cc-tubas/acb-222a

Maybe being supplied with BBb tuning slide caused the confusion?
Pity the poor fool who left the BBb tuning slide in, and then cut 2' off the bell to make it in C.

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:22 pm
by Dan Schultz
sloan wrote:
TubaTinker wrote:
No way. Cutting a bell has much LESS affect on the pitch than cutting the smaller bugle tubing. It has to do with something called 'bell effect' that I understand but can't explain. Maybe Rick Denny can take a shot at that! :)
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Bell+effect+brass
I know what the theory is. But can you explain it in terms that EVERYONE can understand? I spend several years doing acoustics research for a living and I still can't begin to map it all out in layman's terms. :)

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:37 pm
by MikeMason
My overall thought on this horn is simply"I'll pass" :-)

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:20 pm
by sloan
TubaTinker wrote:
sloan wrote:
TubaTinker wrote:
No way. Cutting a bell has much LESS affect on the pitch than cutting the smaller bugle tubing. It has to do with something called 'bell effect' that I understand but can't explain. Maybe Rick Denny can take a shot at that! :)
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Bell+effect+brass
I know what the theory is. But can you explain it in terms that EVERYONE can understand? I spend several years doing acoustics research for a living and I still can't begin to map it all out in layman's terms. :)
Well, in order to do it in "layman's terms" we need to accept a certain hand-wavyness.

How does this sound (I apologize - this is off the top of my head and might be completely bogus). The basic bugle has a collection of partials which are very far from the target harmonic series. The "bell effect" (and the mouthpiece effect) is a shifting of partials so that they line up with the harmonic series. The question is: how does the bell shift the partials? The answer is in the question: where is the "end" of the bell?

So...where *is* the "end" of the bell. The answer is that it is frequency dependent. The effective end of the bell is where pressure is equalized with the surrounding air.
This depends on the relationship between the wavelength of the sound and the diameter of the bell. So - it's easy to see that different frequencies see a different "end" of the bell and hence a different overall length of the bugle.

That should be enough to convince you that the bell will MOVE some of the partials. Alas, my Benade books are out on loan - my recollection is that he has a nice discussion of this. My apologies to him, and you, if I've somehow mangled it. In any event - it's hard to go much further on the details of how and why the mouthpiece and bell take the partials of the basic bugle (my standard model is that these are the odd harmonics of a fundamental that is lower(?) than the target) and compress them to an approximation of all (except 1...) of the harmonics of the fundamental that names the key of the instrument. The "bell effect" pushes the high frequencies lower, and the mouthpiece tends to push the low frequencies higher.

Appealing to Fletcher&Rossing again: (I ask your indulgence here for one of my favorite paragraphs - it has no equations, so perhaps it qualifies as "layman's terms")

"While some brass instruments have Bessel-like flare constants not far from unity, instruments of the trumpet and trombone families typically have [gamma] closer to 0.7 (Young, 1960), so that they flare more abruptly at the mouth, as shown in Fig. 14.2. Such horns can fit even more smoothly onto cylindrical tubing, but they require shape adjustment to tune the resonances, as is indeed true for any such compound horn (Young, 1960); Kent, 1961; Cardwell, 1970; Pyle, 1975). Adjustment of the shape is usually carried out in the course of design to produce a mode series approximating (0.7, 2, 3, 4,...) f0. The first resonance is very much out of alighment, produces a very weak sound, and is not used in playing. Good players can, however, use the nonlinear effects we shall discuss later in this chapter to produce a pedal note at frequency f0 by relying upon cooperation with the harmonically related higher resonances."

What I take out of this (the hands now begin to wave faster and faster, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain) is:

a) simple computations based on length of the bugle canNOT be very precise. There's too much engineering and re-shaping of the resonances going on. A tuba is not an ideal string.

b) even in theory, the first partial is NOT at f0. There is NO RESONANCE AT f0 - no matter how much your ears tell you there is (see the last sentence of the quote).

c) instead, it seems that we can identify the "false tone" with the actual first partial. Notice that buzzing 0.7 f0 will access this partial - but the note should suffer from
a LACK of supporting higher harmonics. Where will the {1.4, 2.1, 2.8, 3.5, 4.2,...} f0
come from?

And so on...

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:24 pm
by Dan Schultz
sloan wrote:..... cut... snip....
Well, in order to do it in "layman's terms" we need to accept a certain hand-wavyness.

How does this sound (I apologize - this is off the top of my head and might be completely bogus).... cut.... snip.....

b) even in theory, the first partial is NOT at f0. There is NO RESONANCE AT f0 - no matter how much your ears tell you there is (see the last sentence of the quote).

c) instead, it seems that we can identify the.... cut.... snip some more....
a LACK of supporting higher harmonics. Where will the {1.4, 2.1, 2.8, 3.5, 4.2,...} f0
come from?

And so on...
Good. Now EVERYONE has a clear understanding.... :lol: :)

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:48 pm
by iiipopes
The point beyond the bell at which the compressions finally equalize is called the terminal node, and as stated, is dependent on the flare and diameter of the bell.

Regarding f0, there is very little, if any, actual fundamental, and what you hear are actually the combined resultant tones from the rest of the overtones heterodyning on what is effectively a pulse wave from the embouchure.

And yes, the bell does make a great deal of difference. The most notorious is the first generation of Sovs that switched from a 17 inch moderate flare bell to a 19 inch wide flare bell, without reengineering the bugle or block. The first run of these tubas all played flat, and over time most were subjected to being cut at one place or another, usually an interior bow.

My BBb Miraphone 186 with the replacement bell that is shorter for the same size or larger throat does exactly what is described above: the higher range is a little compressed, and without a really deep cup mouthpiece, the lower range can go sharp, so that low Eb is in tune 1 (shove) 24, where I usually keep the 1st valve slide out @ 5/8 to 3/4 of an inch. If I'm playing in the upper register for anything more than a few notes, I use a mouthpiece with a shallower bowl and a good sized throat to get the air through it to keep the pitch up and the projection constant.

But for the "cash register," two octaves between low 4th valve 4th ledger line F up to 4th line open F, the only note that really needs adjustment is midline D takes 12 instead of open, 2nd valve Db needs just a hair of lip up, 1st ledger line Eb takes a little bit of focus occasionally if the rotors are dry, and everything else is set and forget.

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:50 pm
by rocksanddirt
TubaRay wrote:Is the title of this thread also the title of a Christmas song? If it isn't, it probably should be.

What tuba is this?
Which laid to rest
In my den is keeping....

Well, I guess I need to work on the words a bit.
Ha! i did the same when i saw the title....

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:55 pm
by rocksanddirt
iiipopes wrote: 'snip'
But for the "cash register," two octaves between low 4th valve 4th ledger line F up to 4th line open F, the only note that really needs adjustment is midline D takes 12 instead of open, 2nd valve Db needs just a hair of lip up, 1st ledger line Eb takes a little bit of focus occasionally if the rotors are dry, and everything else is set and forget.
This is generally my experience of an older narrow bell 186 (16 1/2" or so). It plays well intune with itself and others in the range where 90% of playing is done.

Re: What tuba is this?

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:46 am
by sloan
GPT wrote:
sloan wrote: c) instead, it seems that we can identify the "false tone" with the actual first partial. Notice that buzzing 0.7 f0 will access this partial - but the note should suffer from
a LACK of supporting higher harmonics. Where will the {1.4, 2.1, 2.8, 3.5, 4.2,...} f0
come from?
I don't think that 0.7 f0 is the "false tone" of most tubas... 0.7 f0 is, by definition, a lower frequency than the pedal tone f0, and would therefore be a lower pitch... if you take that 0.7 and "un-round" it to .75, you get a note a perfect fourth lower, which seems to me more like the open pedal G one can get on a trumpet. A tuba's false tone a perfect fourth *higher* than the pedal tone would actually be 4/3 f0... beats me where that fits into the series of partials. :roll:
Right you are - my mistake. You demonstrate the importance of actually *doing* the arithmetic.

Here's an interesting idea (from Wikipedia - approach with caution):


"The most convincing explanation for false-tones is that the horn is acting as a 'third of a pipe' rather than as a half-pipe. The bell remains an anti-node, but there would then be a node 1/3 of the way back to the mouthpiece. If so, it seems that the fundamental would be missing entirely, and would only be inferred from the overtones. However, the node and the anit-node collide in the same spot and cancel out the fundamental."

Another thought: 0.7f0 is close to 1/2 of (4/3)f0.

A weakness in both ideas above is the appeal to "a pipe". A tuba is not a pipe. As usual, reasoning by analogy to a simple pipe (or string) gets you tantalizingly close
to the right conclusions - but it seems to me that this speaks more to the skill of the designers who produced tubas that almost produce a "harmonic series" than it does to the correctness of the reasoning.

The point (alluded to by previous posters) may be that the designers care a LOT about making the tuba act like a string in the "cash register" and feel free to push the deviations from a pure harmonic series out into the frontier, where only the strong and the brave dare venture.

I am reminded of the task of aligning old fashioned CRT monitors. Expensive ones often had a pull-out tray filled with an array of potentiometers. Getting the alignment perfect everywhere was damn near impossible - but it was often possible to take the problems and push them off into the corners. One could then tell the users to stay in the middle of the screen.