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What are the economics of owning a tuba? What does it really cost to purchase, and then maintain one? What sort of equity is there in that pile of brass in the attic?

Let's gather some data.

Maker/model:
built:
purchased:
purchasePrice:
repairs:
currentValue:



Note that "currentValue" should be the (honest) amount of money you would sell it for. Almost by definition, this is expected to be slightly higher than the actual market value.

"built" is the date it was manufactured (if you know)

"purchased" is the date you bought it

"purchasePrice" is ...well...you know...

"repairs" is the amount of money (or personal effort) spend on maintenance.

There should be a small prize for the big winner - maximum value of

currentValue-(purchasePrice+repairs)

Our condolences to the big loser (MINimum value of ...) [something like: I bought a $xx,xxx tuba, repaired if after the airline crushed it, and now I can't give it away]

All right Dr. Sloan I'll take a shot.

While I'm in the black on the several horns I own I will offer up this one. I recently got it back from a freshening by Lee Stofer and we had this same discussion. I've had the horn for 29 years and was really surprised when I thought about how many gigs I've used it for in that time period. My jazz band does at least one gig a week - so using as a minimum number of 50 gigs a year times 29 years that comes to 1450 gigs. The true number is probably well over 1500 since I've also used it for the occasional parade and German Band gig. If you take your economics a step further to dollars earned on investment (or ROI) this one has done pretty well. Since we do a minimum 3 set gig with a minimum charge of $300 per player (5 players - $1500 total for gig and interestingly that number really has not changed in 30 years) I figure the horn has earned about $435,000 ($300 X 50 gigs/yr X 29 years). At 90 years old this old Helicon is still going strong and earning its keep! Everybody in the group has day jobs (1 scientist, 1 doctor, 1 engineer, 1 business owner and 1 venture capitalist) so while we don't need the money it is nice to pick up spare change doing something you would otherwise do for free.

Maker/model: Conn 30K Helicon
built: 1919
purchased: 1981
purchase Price: $85 My dad spotted it in an antique shop where it was being sold as a planter
repairs: $350
current Value: $2500

It is a superb horn and I will never sell it.

For a previous tuba:

Maker/model: Olds O-99
built: 1960s?
purchased: 1999
purchasePrice: Given to me for free by HS band director, under the condition that I'd repair it and make it playable (he was going to turn it into a lamp)
repairs: $800
currentValue: traded for $700 on another tuba at BBC years ago

So I "lost" $100 on it. I got a free tuba, used it on-and-off for about 5 years. So... $20/year to have a tuba? When has that ever been a bad deal?

Ok. I'll try the exercise:

Maker/model: Miraphone 186 BBb
built: 1996
purchased: 1996
purchasePrice: $4700
repairs: $120, and a few hours on a mill and a lathe "improving" it.
currentValue: It would take no less than $10k to get this horn from me.

I play this horn with a german-themed town band (basically, no $), but also a tuba/euph quartet (good $) and a polka band (lots 'o $.) I make around $10k/year with this horn alone.
Bottom line, this one more than pays for itself.

But lets do it again:
Maker/model: Yamaha 621S
built: 2006
purchased: 2006
purchasePrice: $4500
repairs: $0
currentValue: $4500 would probably get this horn from me.

I play this horn with my brass quintet and the money is GREAT, but infrequent. It also gets used as a backup to the Miraphone when I just want to play something different, ya know? I have used it for some community stuff but nothing that ever made any considerable money.

So, my bottom line? I play for the joy of it, not as my primary source of income, (anymore.) If I did my view may be different. But I enjoy a great living from another source and my playing is, in the final analysis, a hobby. To be able to break even is cool, and my 186 has paid for itself, the 621, and is now taking care of a 2007 Toyota Tundra.

For me, life is good. But then I'm almost 50 and it's taken awhile to get here.

I've counseled my daughter (20 y/o and an inspired tuba player in her own right,) that in the early 21st century, playing the tuba is a great avocation, but probably not a great way to try to make a living.

My custom bass guitar with fanned frets is a totally different matter: I have @$1100 dollars in it, not counting accessories and string changes. I've made several thousands of dollars with it over the last few years, so it's in the black, and has taken care of the rest of my instruments that I don't necessarily gig with for money, including the 186 and the Besson, and several other guitars and basses, including a matching fanned fret guitar to the bass.

Hmmm....Let's see....

Maker/model: Miraphone 186 BBb
built:'68-69
purchased: off fleabay in 2008?
purchasePrice: $650, plus about $160 or so for mouth pieces (a bach22 and a bloke1).
repairs: $1,800 to make it playable, and a gigbag.
currentValue: hmmm. hard to say. It's not pretty, but sounds nice and all the parts work. Unless I was getting another horn, i can't see selling it.

income: Ha! probably about $30 total busking at the farmer's market.

Ok, well, thanks, Bloke, for recapping the three types of instrument sales based on the instrument owners' approach to pricing. I guess I must have missed your point. If an instrument owner is being frank about the instrument's worth to him/her, (we're all being frank here, right?), then I think that needs to be respected.
Maybe you could elaborate, for the sake of us trolls.

bloke wrote:

Chriss2760 wrote:Ok, well, thanks, Bloke, for recapping the three types of instrument sales based on the instrument owners' approach to pricing. I guess I must have missed your point. If an instrument owner is being frank about the instrument's worth to him/her, (we're all being frank here, right?), then I think that needs to be respected.
Maybe you could elaborate, for the sake of us trolls.

elaboration:

- I believe you would need an average of (at least) dozens of fairly recent sales of one specific model (with extensive pictorial documentation to reasonably confirm condition) to have any sort of usable data.

- Most people prefer to keep their business matters private, so gathering any quantity of data would be a challenge. Additionally, as some of these (more than a few) are cash transactions, proof would be an additional issue.

- I'd look quite near the top to find the suspect.

bloke "Oh well, I've been trolled...I've already posted TWICE. "

I don't know....current value is always a total crapshoot that is way dependent upon the market conditions one is selling into.

I think it is interesting I think to look at the value folks feel like they are getting out of horns they own, though, so i don't take this as trolling by any means. certainly not to other areas of the internetz where i waste time.

sloan wrote: Note that "currentValue" should be the (honest) amount of money you would sell it for. Almost by definition, this is expected to be slightly higher than the actual market value.

I would think significantly higher? I mean, if you don't want to sell your tuba, then its value is implicitly higher than market value - no one is likely to pay what it would take to pry it away from you - and that's usually where we're at, assuming that it's mostly about playing them and not buying and selling.

bloke wrote:With all due respect, boldly stating a market value on an instrument currently owned (particularly regarding one that is not commonly bought or sold) is fairly close to humbug.

...I'm not sure that very many of any of these types of seller is willing to go into much detail in these regards. bloke "smelling a troll"

Hmmmmmmmmm... this item below must have been posted by that other Bloke who stated a market price on a certain Helicon - and talk about not commonly bought or sold!!!

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5467&p=40043&hilit= ... con#p40043" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank"

Come on Joe - smile - it's almost a New Year!

Donn wrote:

sloan wrote: Note that "currentValue" should be the (honest) amount of money you would sell it for. Almost by definition, this is expected to be slightly higher than the actual market value.

I would think significantly higher? I mean, if you don't want to sell your tuba, then its value is implicitly higher than market value - no one is likely to pay what it would take to pry it away from you - and that's usually where we're at, assuming that it's mostly about playing them and not buying and selling.

It depends. Sales always involve bid...and asked. I posed the "value" in that way to avoid the problems bloke is trying to drag in.

Market value is unknowable until you make the sale. An X is "worth" what a willing buyer will pay to a willing seller. No more, and no less. I was looking for the "current asking price" (for you young folk, that might be the "Buy It Now" price).

If a particular instrument has "sentimental value" or is otherwise unique - it's possible that it is "priceless". However, I doubt that there exist any tubas that the current owner would not gladly sell for $1,000,000.00. "Every tuba has its price" Once we establish that, there is no question that it's for sale - we're just haggling over the price.

I wasn't asking about "what you think you could get for it" - but rather "what is it *worth* to you". You might have a good idea of what you could get for it - and (if you are rational) that should definitely be lower than "what it's worth to you". If it's a commodity item (lots of them available on the market), then it's also not terribly rational to claim that it is "worth" a LOT more than you could get for it - because you could always go out and get another one!

I won't quibble about "slightly" vs. "significantly" - except that I did mean to indicate that I was looking for a dollar amount that was pretty close to what the owner thinks he could get for it, if he chose to sell it.

I was asking for an opinion, not a Fair Market Value backed up by statistics on "comparables".

In any actual sale, it should be clear that the SELLER is of the opinion that the sale price is "worth" more (to him) than the object is (to him). The BUYER has exactly the opposite opinion - the object is more desirable than the money.

Finally, I note that I didn't say anything at all about money EARNED by the tubas - but most people have factored that in. I prefer to leave it out. In my opinion, the performer is paid for playing - not the instrument. But, perhaps I was wrong about that - the comments on the earning power of particular instruments has been most interesting.

bloke wrote:bloke "smelling a troll"

When one is able to smell one's self, it's long past time for a bath.

In the final analysis, the exercise was found to have been worthwhile. Thanks for the original post Sloan.