1920's H.N.White King CC Tuba

[Timswisstuba]

King CC 4 valve2.jpg

Here is a silver 1920's King CC tuba. The previous owner was not sure if it had been cut so, being honest, he told me that it was cut from BBb.

After closer inspection of the bracing and absence of a double looped third valve slide revealed that it was never cut. There is also an absence of solder scars left from previous bracing commonly found in cut tubas. I believe the original bell was a fixed bell-front and had been modified sometime during it's life so that it could be removable. Part of the reason the previous owner thought that it was a cut tuba was because the bell tenon does not line up exactly in relation to the H.N. White engraving. I think the reason for this was because of the original fixed bell-front.

I wish this tuba would grow a 5th valve but unfortunately there is no room for it. The 4th valve was tuned to a 2&4 combo when I bought it and later I decided to make it a quint valve (perfect 5th) so that I can play low C#.

On the day I bought it, I had just stepped off a 10 hour international flight and was pretty tired. I couldn’t resist trying it even though I knew it wouldn’t be playable because of the bullet hole in the 4th branch. While I was playing, a Japanese tourist decided to film me and I can’t imagine what she was thinking as she listened to me play,jetlagged, on a bell-front tuba with a bullet hole in it !

Since then Harvey Hartman and I have fixed it up and made her playable again. The intonation is not perfect, but it has a beautiful sound. It plays very closely to the King 1241’s but only in CC.

Is it an original CC ? All the markings on the tuba lead me to believe it is, but more importantly it has that great vintage American CC sound.

[iiipopes]

In the 1920's, King offered their tubas in both BBb and CC versions. So it is very possible that this is an original CC tuba. Note in the link to the ad from hnwhite.com, however, that the benefits of the recording bell verses the upright bell are touted. Even so, it is highly probably that your tuba is a model 1246: upright with 4th valve added. Great tuba.

http://www.hnwhite.com/King/Low%20Brass ... 0Large.jpg" target="_blank

[Timswisstuba]

Whether or not it is an original CC doesn’t matter to me; my intention is not to sell it. What matters to me more is that it’s great for playing dixieland jazz gigs. Bell-front CC’s (original or not) are a rarity.

Thanks for the link iiipops!

[The Big Ben]

After closer inspection of the bracing and absence of a double looped third valve slide revealed that it was never cut. There is also an absence of solder scars left from previous bracing commonly found in cut tubas.

It's not terribly difficult to shorten a tuba to CC and make it "appear as if" it were never shortened.

On these Kings especially. When I owned a 2340 and talk on TubeNet went to cutting horns, I looked mine over and the branches just seemed to be constructed in such a way that a skilled tech could easily cut them in a way that worked.

I'm guessing that is one of the reasons Sam Gnagey bases many of his horns on this series of King instruments.

[Timswisstuba]

I know Bloke will disagree with me but if the tuba was in fact cut , the guy who would have cut it was very skilled at the most difficult and delicate aspects of cutting a tuba and a real amateur at cutting the bell which, in my opinion is one of the easiest parts.

The important thing now is that it's in CC and it sounds great.

[Harvey Hartman]

Its a Crazy World, If I would not have had a Dixieland rehearsal ,I would have picked Tim up at the Air Port, But I was running late that day and I picked him up at Dillions were He ran into this nice old King,To me it looks like a Original CC horn. But Like Tim said It all in the Playing that counts. It was a good protect horn to make playable again and for me a fun job making aother old horn play again..I enjoy doing work for Tim he comes to my small shop & home here in Pa. I think Tim has been to my home 6 times ,We have a spare bedroom My wife Cindy says we have a international Tuba Bed & Breakfast, We work all day on his protects, We have lunch & Dinner toghter. Its ready cool to have the customer here to play & make the horns to there specs. Tim does not set and watch, he helps put parts toghter , cleaning parts and everything is made his specs, I think we have cut (2) 24Js into CC adding a roto valve to one, and other one we put a 4 valve roto set on it. (1) from a 20j 3valve body into a 4 valve CC front action horn.
That cool Giant Freach Horn thats in Tims picture came out of Tims brain and into my shop. That whole Freach Horn comes apart and fits into a SKB Case!! Its nice having a Customer like Tim he is always STRETCHING my abilities and making me look outside the box. Thanks Tim ...

[Ace]

Tim,

That horn is a national treasure and should be returned immediately to the United States. I know you will want to cooperate; thus, I'm sending you my address so it can be shipped here. Uhm, I'll take care of the rest.

Ace

[tofu]

Tim or Harvey,

Could you please post pictures of the two modified 24j's - especially the four rotor conversion?

[Alex C]

I know Bloke will disagree with me but if the tuba was in fact cut , the guy who would have cut it was very skilled at the most difficult and delicate aspects of cutting a tuba and a real amateur at cutting the bell which, in my opinion is one of the easiest parts.

The important thing now is that it's in CC and it sounds great.

I agree.

One true give-away would be in finding former locations of brace flanges. Those are always scored at the factory and you can find the original location of at least a couple.

If you have the horn disassembled at some point you can inspect the ends of the large bows as well. It is virtually impossible to get the smooth and accurately-even cut the factory sends out (Holton exculded).

There are a couple of King CC's of that vintage, compare them side by side as well, if you are so motivated. However, as you say, the important thing is that you like the way it sounds.

[Wyvern]

That cool Giant Freach Horn thats in Tims picture came out of Tims brain and into my shop.

I have been wondering what that is! Any chance of a full size picture Tim?

[Timswisstuba]

That cool Giant Freach Horn thats in Tims picture came out of Tims brain and into my shop..... Tim he is always STRETCHING my abilities and making me look outside the box. Thanks Tim ...

I have a lot of respect for Harvey. He is really the only one I've met who was courageous enough to be willing to make a Contrabass French Horn, Contrabass Trumpet ,cut the two 20J's into CC, and numerous other instruments with me; all of which we did successfully.

Most of the other shops, at least here in Europe, said it couldn't be done.

[Timswisstuba]

That cool Giant Freach Horn thats in Tims picture came out of Tims brain and into my shop.

I have been wondering what that is! Any chance of a full size picture Tim?

I was a student of Roger Bobo's and he had a bass horn. I always admired it so Harv and I made one together.

[Timswisstuba]

That horn is a national treasure and should be returned immediately to the United States. I know you will want to cooperate; thus, I'm sending you my address so it can be shipped here. Uhm, I'll take care of the rest.

Ace

I tried to tell that to the Swiss Customs Officers thinking they wouldn't charge me duty, but it didn't work. Can I send you their importation tax bill instead?

Tim

[Timswisstuba]

I let an original Buescher bell-front CC slip through my hands and still regret it. It was a fine horn...

One of the only things I regret in life was having to sell an original 1919 King 4 valve CC Sousaphone. I sold it to a player in Calif. and I wonder "who's kissing her now.."

[bigbob]

Nice horn Tim! how do you like it compared to your Brunner that you just sold?? bigbob

[UDELBR]

... a Dixieland rehearsal ...

What the hell's that?

[Harvey Hartman]

... a Dixieland rehearsal ...

What the hell's that?

Well it was for Me & The Bone player we all were going To a Shriner Fall MASA at Virginia Beach, and being Jugded ...The other guys are Great!!!Players!!! I only get to play Dixieland maybe 2 times a Year. The Dixieland Band,The German Band,Concert band,and The Brass Sextuplet all were judged superior that day The Concert got first place in the Parade ,, The Chanters also Placed First.The Rajah Shrine did well That week end... Thanks Harv.

[Frank Ortega]

What key is that giant fench horn in? Does it play in tune? I have always thought about a project to make a piston F helicon from Eb sousa parts, but haven't had the spare cash for the project. Yet...

Frank

[Timswisstuba]

What key is that giant fench horn in? Does it play in tune? I have always thought about a project to make a piston F helicon from Eb sousa parts, but haven't had the spare cash for the project. Yet...

Frank

It's a single contrabass horn in Eb. Making a double horn would have been really complicated. The original idea was to have it in F but it's really difficult cutting a tapered circle and maintaining the circle. Plus it plays really well and in-tune in Eb so why change something that works.

I hope to make a separate thread on this subject soon.

[Wyvern]

I hope to make a separate thread on this subject soon.

That will be very interesting Tim! I was thinking, the horn must be difficult to hold - heavy?