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Didn't you have a thread about this before?

When tuning to a piano for solo work, I have my accompanist play and hold a multi-octave major chord whose root is the fundamental of the pitch of my instrument (CC or EEb). I then listen to the chord, play the root note and try to have that note "melt" into the chord. I then play a muti-octave arpegio to line up the tuba, as best it can be, in several octaves. This has worked well for me. Bloke is correct about the difference between the tempered scale vs. just intonation. I am not afflicted with perfect pitch and find that if I listen to the tempered pitches within the piano chord while sounding the root, I subconciously gravitate toward them when playing the arpegio.

bloke wrote:In general, "playing sharp" is the most common fault in wind playing anyway. If a wind player finds that they are out-of-tune - but confused about whether they are sharp or flat, the safer bet is that they are sharp.

I find this to be one of the most absolute "truisms" out there.

As a result, I follow what my teacher in HS/Undergrad (David Randolph) had me do, and work to have my own students do this a good bit: I discourage them from walking out on stage and having the pianist play a note and then they play "aim and misfire" to try and match the pitch. Instead, I instruct the pianist to hold down the sustain pedal and then the tubist/euphoniumist plays at least the open notes on the horn (CC, BBb, F, whatever) and get the piano to ring with sympathetic vibrations. Playing several different notes (with a release from the pianist between each one) can help the player find their own way. Generally this takes place before the recital.

What about the concept of playing with a student in lessons--like playing in 5ths with a student, to work on the concept of no-beat/just int. playing? If we work on playing in tune with another (and yes, playing in tune with another tuba is vastly different than playing in tune with a piano) can't that help develop the ears in order to prepare them for being able to better respond on stage?

dwa

and, even in this short of a discussion, it seems we've turned to pitch first--but performing with a pianist is not just about pitch, even though that's what we often bitch about the most.....

what about attempting to match articulations? what about voicings? (i.e., playing with a darker piano vs. a brighter one) what about getting the pianist to "go with you", esp. if it's a student wind player battling with a student pianist...? how are these approached?

how about the avocational player who is asked to play an offertory in church, but the church piano/organ isn't near A440? How to help that person? (and yes, this went back to pitch)

Good topic. I did a set of solos this Christmas with piano. We're going to continue to try this so this is something I need to hear.

I accompany the tuba students at the local university for their degree recitals and jury exams at the end of each semester. They are average to good college players. I see more of a problem with them "sitting" on a note out of tune (particularly in the high register) versus being sharp or flat across the entire range.

I've never noticed a difference between playing with tuba players and playing with the higher brasses, and I think I have a pretty good ear for such things. I will, though, admit that most of the music played by the tuba players is more "modern"...that is, the demands of good intonation (lining up major chords, rules of western harmony, etc.) seem to apply less to them than their higher-playing colleagues.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:I will, though, admit that most of the music played by the tuba players is more "modern"...that is, the demands of good intonation (lining up major chords, rules of western harmony, etc.) seem to apply less to them than their higher-playing colleagues.

To clarify for my own understanding, do trumpet/horn/trombone players (at least in your experience) seem to play more classical/old music? I'm not really up on what "lesser-brass players" play.

Bob Kolada wrote:To clarify for my own understanding, do trumpet/horn/trombone players (at least in your experience) seem to play more classical/old music? I'm not really up on what "lesser-brass players" play.

Yes, they do. More of the baroque pieces and WAY more romantic-era solos. Trumpet, horn, and trombone students (and even euphonium soloists) play music that requires them to adjust their pitch according to chord function much more often than tuba players do. With tuba solos (particularly those "William Presser" editions), quartal harmony seems to reign supreme and western harmony often takes a back seat.

I'm going to through in my usual blather about playing in tune with one or more other instruments. With professionals, what you see is everyone assuming that everyone else is correct and they are the one who is wrong, so that all constantly move towards being in tune with one another. It happens so quickly that rarely is "out of tune" discerned by the audience. With amateurs it is generally the opposite; each assumes he is the correct one and proudly sits on his pitch, even though beats are rattling the light fixtures in the ceiling.

So to morph back to the topic....if this constant "listening for discord" is going on, a tuba with a piano should not be any more out of tune than a tuba with a tuba. However, I agree with the up-front tuning suggested by Bloke; makes a lot of sense to me.

Trying to play violin with piano has driven me nuts in the past; playing violin in an orchestra or a string quartet, you tune the fifths as fifths. But if you do that with a piano....only the "tuning A" will be in tune unison-wise. Like I said, drives me nuts. Either way I'm out of tune....either my instrument is not tuned correctly by my standards, or I'm out of tune with the piano.

MA

bloke is, as usual, spot on with his practical suggestions. But GPT is correct about the *reason* that piano tuning is "stretched".

This is an interesting topic - because it combines neatly with other threads having to do with "harmonics" and "partials".

Pianos are tuned with wider intervals than "theoretically correct" because piano strings have partials which are "inharmonic". Not by much - but enough to notice as you go from the top to the bottom of the piano.

Here's another fragment from Fletcher&Rossing: (p. 363) "...lead to the same amount of stretching, which ... is sufficient to shift the 17th partial one 'partial position' to the frequency of the 18th partial of an ideal string without stiffness."

and...(p.388-90)

"It is a well-known fact that a piano sounds better if the highest and lowest octaves are stretched to more than a 2:1 frequency ratio. There is less than unanimity about the amount of stretching that is optimum, however. Without a doubt, it depends upon the size and other characteristics of the piano."

"There appear to be both physical and psychological reasons for preferring stretched octaves. The physical reasons are related to the slight inharmonicity of the string partials ... Since the inharmonicity constant is greater for short strings than for long strings, one would expect to find greater stretching in an upright piano than in a concert grand and the greatest stretching of all in a small spinet. This is found to be the case."

"There appears to be another reason for stretch tuning, however, a psychoacoustical one. Several experiments have shown that listeners judge either sequential or simultaneous octaves as true octaves when their interval is about 10 cents (0.6%) greater than a 2:1 frequency ratio (Burns and Ward, 1982). When a melody is played in a high octave with an accompaniment several octaves lower, many listeners will judge them in tune when the intonation is stretched by a semitone (bass in C, melody in C#); this demonstration, described by Terhardt and Zick (1975) is reproduced by Houtsma et al. (1987)."



...

"Irregular patterns of inharmonicity, especially in the bass strings of small upright pianos, are a challenge to the piano tuner. Furthermore, the fundamentals of the low bass notes are usually weak, and do not contribute much to the pitch of the note. The upper treble notes, on the other hand, are of such short duration that beats between partials may no longer serve as a dependable guide for tuning. ..."

"In examining the string inharmonicity and tuning practices applied to several pianos and harpsichords, Carp (1986) concluded that tuning preferences are substantially influenced by factors other than inharmonicity. An instrument that sounds like a piano is likely to be tuned with stretched octaves, while a harpsichord is tuned with exact octaves regardless of inharmonicity."


So...both bloke *and* GMT may be correct!!

Note that the business about a high melody in C# sounding in tune with the same melody several octaves lower in C may not really apply when it's the tuba playing the low melody in C against the piano playing 3 octaves higher in C#. The psychoacoustic effect may be there - but the physical inharmonicity doesn't quite work because in this case it's the (in)harmonicity of the TUBA that matters.

The bottom line here is: USE YOUR EARS and not your 4-function calculator. Accept the fact that partials are not harmonics, and that different instruments have different partial structures. Also: there may be many "real reasons" for a given musical practice. Feel free to believe whatever fairy tale leads you to a pleasing performance.

MaryAnn wrote:I'm going to through in my usual blather about playing in tune with one or more other instruments. With professionals, what you see is everyone assuming that everyone else is correct and they are the one who is wrong, so that all constantly move towards being in tune with one another. It happens so quickly that rarely is "out of tune" discerned by the audience. With amateurs it is generally the opposite; each assumes he is the correct one and proudly sits on his pitch, even though beats are rattling the light fixtures in the ceiling.

A local high school band director has a great way of teaching this: he constantly tells his students to "find the center" IOW, everyone has to move to the pitch center, even if a particular player is, technically, right on the money. If the pitch center is lower than the technical position of a given pitch, even if you are right on it you must yield to the ensemble and lower the pitch while others raise theirs until it is in tune.

That obviously can't happen with a piano or pitched percussion. But when a student has had the concept of moving to find the pitch drilled into them, they're more likely to find the pitch with a piano than a student that has never heard the concept.

My college band director once told our oboe player (who had a habit of playing rehearsals with a tuner on his stand, as if the tuner would pick out his pitches and not the picc that sat in front of him...) that if he was exactly right according to the tuner and the rest of the ensemble was sharp, he was wrong.

One way that I can tell if something is amiss with tuning is that the balance will seem off all of a sudden...because the harmony isn't as resonant with an out of tune pitch. And, as a product of my teacher's admonitions, I always assume that I am wrong.

MaryAnn wrote:I'm going to through in my usual blather about playing in tune with one or more other instruments. With professionals, what you see is everyone assuming that everyone else is correct and they are the one who is wrong, so that all constantly move towards being in tune with one another. It happens so quickly that rarely is "out of tune" discerned by the audience. With amateurs it is generally the opposite; each assumes he is the correct one and proudly sits on his pitch, even though beats are rattling the light fixtures in the ceiling.

This is perfectly logical. If one is playing with professionals, the odds ARE that they are correct; if one is playing with amateurs the odds ARE that they are wrong.

But seriously - it's usually amateurs who are concerned with being "right". Pros care about the effect on the audience, and are a lot more ... shall we say ... "flexible" ... when it comes to what they are willing to do to make it come out right out front.

MileMarkerZero wrote:
My college band director once told our oboe player (who had a habit of playing rehearsals with a tuner on his stand, as if the tuner would pick out his pitches and not the picc that sat in front of him...) that if he was exactly right according to the tuner and the rest of the ensemble was sharp, he was wrong.

Even worse: the oboe player who (with an eye on the tuner) lips up to a perfect A while giving a tuning note ... and then puts both the tuner AND the "lipping up" away for the performance. The result is that everyone is in tune with the oboe EXCEPT THE OBOE.

sloan wrote: Even worse: the oboe player who (with an eye on the tuner) lips up to a perfect A while giving a tuning note ... and then puts both the tuner AND the "lipping up" away for the performance. The result is that everyone is in tune with the oboe EXCEPT THE OBOE.

You speak the truth!

You guys listen to the oboe player?!