More Embarrassing Questions

[Funcoot]

I have two questions that I am kind of embarrassed to ask, but I am very curious about the first and I need help with the second to help my playing.

I have seen a lot of talk on this forum about compensating instruments. What does this mean? What makes it different from a none compensating one? Are they more expensive?

The second, I am wondering if anyone could give me some tonguing exercises that will help me get a better foundation for tonguing. Right now, my tonguing is pretty poor. My tone is fine, but I my tonguing just isn't flexible at all. No matter what syllable I use it all just sounds the same to me. Da, La, Ta, and Ti. I mean there are some noticable differences, but I am just not satisfied with any of it at all.

Thanks in advanced!

[ZachDomrese]

bump because i am also wondering what compensating valves are exactly.

[gdthetubaman1291]

For the tonguing you might want to try "toe" or "doe" what ever suits you best. Also, think of those syllables when you're breathing in. This will help with getting a nice, big, desirable breath and help in producing a bigger sound. Lastly, you need to make sure that you're backing up your tonguing with enough air. You need to feel like you're blowing through the horn as opposed to just at the lips.


Roger Lewis gave me a very helpful exercise to improve use of air while tonguing.

Quietly make a "hut" sound and hold the air behind the tongue, Then release the air with the "toe" syllable. Try this for a while then move on to the mouthpiece. When you feel comfortable with that move on to the horn. Always make sure that your air is right behind your tongue and that you're always blowing through.

-Garrett

[Dan Schultz]

Compensating systems are explained nicely here:

http://www.dwerden.com/eu-articles-comp.cfm

[Rick F]

I have two questions that I am kind of embarrassed to ask, but I am very curious about the first and I need help with the second to help my playing.

I have seen a lot of talk on this forum about compensating instruments. What does this mean? What makes it different from a none compensating one? Are they more expensive? <snip>

Thanks in advanced!

Take a look at this explanation on David Werden's website. He explains the Blaikley compensating system very well. There's also an interactive video to explain it better.

The Blaikley Compensating System

[termite]

Hi Funcoot

There is no such thing as a stupid question.

Briefly the compensating system is a mechanical solution to the problem of valve combinations getting progressively sharper the more valves are pushed down at once. This applies mostly to the one and three combination and the one, two and three combinations on three valve instruments and the extreme low note register just above the pedal range on a four valve instrument.

Why are first and third or first, second and third combinations sharp (tubing too short) in the first place?

Hopefully the following will make sense.

Consider a Bb baritone. The open instrument is the right length to be a Bb instrument. (Duh!!!!)

The second valve is the right length to turn the whole thing into a baritone in "A". (Lowers by a semitone).

The first valve is the right length to turn the whole thing into a baritone in "Ab". (Lowers by a tone).

The third valve is the right length to turn the whole thing into a baritone in "G". (Lowers by three semitones - or a minor third or whatever you want to call it).

No problems so far.

Lets look at the first and third valve combination (which should turn the instrument into a baritone in "F") in stages.

We start with the open instrument in Bb - no problems, then we put the third valve down which puts the thing into "G" - no problems - the final stage is to add the first valve as well to turn our "G" baritone into a baritone in "F".

For the first valve to put our "G" baritone into "F" it needs to be the right length to lower a "G" baritone by a tone. If you go up a couple of lines I said that the first valve is in fact the right length to lower the open Bb baritone by a tone.

Valve tubing which is the right length to lower a Bb instrument by a tone will be too short to lower a
"G" instrument by a tone.

Compare the length of the first valve tubing on a cornet to the same thing on a tenor horn - not only is the open instrument longer all the valve tubing is proportionately longer as well.

Hopefully that makes sense.

To overcome this problem cornets and trumpets have triggers on the first and third valve slides so the player can push these slides out when playing first and third or first, second and third. This is not practical on larger instruments and led to the invention of the compensating system.

The compensating system has some extra little loops of tubing between some of the valve casings which only come into play when certain valves are used together.

Old Boosey & Hawkes three valve Imperial tubas and a lot of modern British tenor horns and baritones have a compensating third valve. With these instruments when you push all three valves down you're getting the open instrument plus the first, second and third valve tubing AND the extra little loops between the valves effectively adding a bit more tubing. The extra tubing (compensating loops) add just enough for the first and third valve combination to lower a "Bb" instrument all the way down to an "F" instrument.

On a four valve compensating instrument - i.e. euphoniums and Besson Sovereign tubas the compensating loops come into play when the fourth valve is used in combination with other valves. The main benefit of this is when playing the notes between low fourth valve "F" and the open pedal "Bb". Low concert "B" on a Bb instrument is simply all four valves down.

I read somewhere that the fourth valve was originally added to overcome the problem of the first and second combination being too short. It was later found to be useful for extending the low range without using false tones. The fourth valve is often regarded as the same as first and second but it is in fact a bit longer - it's the right length to lower a Bb instrument all the way down to being an "F" instrument.

I hope this is of some help.

I've got a few tonguing exercises but someone higher up the tuba player ladder will probably give a better answer.

Regards

Gerard

[sloan]

Ok, I read the Dwerden page, but I still don't quite understand. Is there a difference between a 3+1 compensating tuba and a 4 valve tuba? Or do they accomplish the exact same thing, with the "+1" and 4th valves being located at different parts of the horn?

"3+1" means that there is a cluster of 3 valves played with the right hand AND a single
valve played by the left hand.

"4-valve" usually means a single cluster of 4 valves played by the right hand.

a "Compensating" instrument sends the air ONCE through the valve section (just like a non-compensator) and then AGAIN if (and only if) the "+1" valve is depressed. There is a second path through the valves, and a second set of (much shorter) tubing loops attached to the valves.

The idea is that the second set of tuning loops are the right length to ADD to the main tuning loops to COMPENSATE for the fact that the 4th valve has added a VERY LONG piece of tubing to the bugle. Recall that the 4th valve is equivalent to 1st valve plus 3rd valve - or 5 semi-tones.

I'll leave 3-valve compensators for someone else to describe.

Oh yes...I believe that one advantage of the 3+1 configuration is that you can use a larger bore for the 4th (+1) valve. It is further along, and the bore has some space to expand on it's way from the 3rd valve to the 4th. If the 4th valve is directly alongside the 3rd valve, there's no room for the bore to expand.

The 3+1 configuration is seen in many euphoniums, and a few tubas.

Usually, the 3 valve cluster in a 3+1 is "top action". 4 valve clusters are seen as both top action and front action.

The 3+1 configuration is used (as a rule) for compensators - 4-valve clusters are (usually?) not compensators.

[tubaguy9]

A regular 4 valve horn has all 4 valves in line, operated by the same hand. A 3+1 is most often 3 valves in line operated by the right hand and the 4th valve operated by one of the fingers on the left hand.

4 valve horn:


3+1 valve horn:

[termite]

I'll leave 3-valve compensators for someone else to describe.

I already have.

[Dan Schultz]

Ok, I read the Dwerden page, but I still don't quite understand. Is there a difference between a 3+1 compensating tuba and a 4 valve tuba? Or do they accomplish the exact same thing, with the "+1" and 4th valves being located at different parts of the horn?

Hi, Mike! If you come by in the morning, you can see a 3 + 1 compensating Besson tuba I have here. There's nothing like a real visual! I also have examples of both a 3 + 1 compensating euphonium and a 3 + 1 non-compensating euphonium.

[Kevin Hendrick]

The 3+1 configuration is used (as a rule) for compensators - 4-valve clusters are (usually?) not compensators.

Indeed, usually. Besson's BE983 is a front-action four valve cluster Eb compensator.

The other two horns you might come across with that configuration are the Besson 993 (BBb) and Willson 2975 (euphonium).

[pgym]

There is such a thing as a 3+1 non-compensating tuba, such as the YEP-642 (if I'm not getting my model numbers mixed up again), which is actually a euphonium, but they aren't that common.

The YEP-642 "Maestro" is a compensating euphonium (as are the 641 and 842). Yamaha's non-compensating 3+1 euph is the 621.

[Dan Schultz]

Along with the front-action compensating Besson tubas... there are a few of these oddball Marzans by Willson euphoniums floating around:

[Funcoot]

Wow, you guys make up such a great community, I really appreciate all the useful help!

I am reading and taking mental notes on the articulation tips. Keep them coming guys!

Thanks so much!

[Kevin Hendrick]

Along with the front-action compensating Besson tubas... there are a few of these oddballs floating around:

Indeed -- Marzan and "Canadian Brass" (Getzen, I think?) -- both made by Willson and very similar to the 2975.

[termite]

Along with the front-action compensating Besson tubas... there are a few of these oddball Marzans by Willson euphoniums floating around:

This is a good picture - you can see the "U" shaped compensating loops sticking out of the valve casing.

Gerard

[Tubadork]

So the compensating Euphs are compensating tone and not intonation right?
Because as we have all be lectured to on another thread that went nuts, any adjustment to the length of the instrument is done only to manipulate the tone and our lips make the pitch right?

Sorry, had to do it,
Bill

[termite]

So the compensating Euphs are compensating tone and not intonation right?

Good TNFJ joke.

No one's brought this up yet but a lot of people feel that the compensating loops make a tuba "stuffy" to blow on fingerings where they come into play.

Gerard

[iiipopes]

The one item that has been missed in all this that might help clarify: the term "3+1" means that the first three valves are worked by the right hand, and the 4th valve is worked by the left hand, regardless of whether or not the instrument is conventional or Blaikley compensating. This usually means that the instrument, whether euph, Eb or BBb tuba, has the first three valves upright in Besson fashion and the fourth valve on the side of the instrument, rather than all four valves in a row, whether upright like on Yamaha 3 series and some Jupiter instruments, or in front, as on many other tubas.

[Lee Stofer]

There, someone had to use it, probably my all-time pet peeve word - Stuffy!!! But, whether stuffy, fluffy, or whatever, there is a certain tendency, more on some instruments than others, to have a slight increase in perceived resistance and possible loss of clarity. And, although I wouldn't have believed it two years ago, simply venting the pistons cleans up that tendency. Apparently, small pockets of air pressure get trapped in the many tubes and then released in the process of playing, particulary in fast passages, and venting the pistons relieves the pressure. Matt Walters get the credit for having this good idea. I have tried this on a non-compensating King piston-valve tuba within the last year, and it made a difference, making for very clean and concise articulation. Now, this does not mean that you can quit practicing................