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KiltieTuba wrote:So I'm writing this thesis on the sousaphone and have discovered that there really isn't much info on it or really anything prior to it like the helicon. My question is where can I find more info on the helicon and ultimately the sousaphone?

I checked the campus library which only turned up a book on Sousa with some awesome pictures and a smidgen of info regarding the sousaphone and a few of the players in Sousa's band. The thesis itself is divided into three sections with a sort of time-line structure of important creation dates and what not. I'm really lacking information on the sousaphone and helicon... any of you people out there have some info on anything regarding aspects behind the helicon or sousaphone, or pretty much any historical information on these would be great.

I'm assuming you have seen and read Clifford Bevan's The Tuba Family. I haven't looked recently, but I do recall a chapter on helicons. Then there is A Treatise on the Tuba by Donald Stauffer, but I don't recall how much he has to say about helicons. Bevan is really the only historically researched book on tubas in print that I know of, though he has written redactions for publication in other books such as the Tuba Source Book.

Doing a thesis on the history of X is more of a history thesis than a music thesis, so you have to bone up on your history research skills. That may require contacting authors to find out their sources, and then digging for those sources, which may require writing to libraries in Europe, etc. If you are going very deep back into the 19th century, expect it to be challenging--and time-consuming.

Rick "recalling some argument about who built the first sousaphone" Denney

LJV wrote:Of course, helicons have been around much longer than the sousaphone.

Both JW Pepper and CG Conn claim to have made the first instrument called the "sousaphone."

An interesting subject. The answer is out there. Not hard to find...

A sousaphone is really just a bell-up version of a helicon, and the bell-forward sousaphone a further modification.

My recollection of the dates for the Pepper/Conn (depending on what one believes) suggests the range of 1897-1898ish. Helicons of the rotary type go back much further, and are variations on the rotary tuba, which was first built as such by Cerveny in the 1840's. Helicons would have emerged in between those, but it's a pretty big window.



Rick "noting that Cerveny is still making helicons of that style--hint, hint" Denney

http://www.sousaphones4ever.nl/sousaphone-hist-2.htm" target="_blank

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/art ... aphone.htm" target="_blank

the original patent for a helicon is from 1849, I believe. The original tuba 1835, right? 1836?

easy information to find. Wikipedia gives good basics, but don't trust everything you see on it.

eupher61 wrote:the original patent for a helicon is from 1849, I believe.

Steve, where did you see that? That sounds a bit early, but patents are one of those original sources for historians. Was it a Prussian patent, as was the Wieprecht and Moritz patent on the basstuba in 1836? This sound like where the OP needs to start with a helicon/sousaphone chronology.

Rick "and are you coming to the Army conference?" Denney

LJV wrote:Of course, helicons have been around much longer than the sousaphone.

I don't remember where I found these - probably from Klaus or somewhere...

David Richoux wrote:I don't remember where I found these - probably from Klaus or somewhere...

I don't remember seeing these before. So, Stowasser patented the helicon design in 1848. That's at least 10 years earlier than I would have thought.

Is the first paragraph (I don't read German) a quote from the patent? The whole thing seems to be from someone's later summary, given that it mentions a Cerveny variation dated 1888 and the Conn Sousaphone dated 1898.

Rick "seeing that it has Cerveny-style rotary valves, however" Denney

I remember where I first saw those pages - they are from "Fast vergessene Blasinstrumente aus zwei Jahrhunderten" by Gunter Dullat (sorry for the missing ¨ - can't figure out how to make that work ) that he published in 1992 - a very interesting book of odd wind instruments, by the way. Page One is his notes on the illustration, but I don't read German very well either!

The title is Googletranslated as: "Nearly forgotten instruments from two centuries"

and I am officially giving up on trying to convert the text - "musical output of the Berlin newspaper from the year 1845 we find the written probably the first for the illustrative helikon: 'The location of the sound stuke above the head or under the arm has been versuscht by Russen already in manifold wise. There they hang, even the bubble around the body-instrument, the sound of them stuck behind the left ear dab on the shoulder is..." (maybe the 1845 German paper says the design idea was taken from the Russians? - I am guessing here.)

Klaus will need to step in, I think. I can send a larger scan of the text, but I bet he already has a copy of his own.

KiltieTuba wrote:I found the Treatise on Tuba, much more helpful than the book on Sousa, which is pretty obvious. In fact I read the entire book last night while still in the library. There isn't much about the helicon, maybe a page or two, and then maybe a page half a book later, but it's a start.

It's a good read. But Bevan has more and his work is a little more academically researched and documented.

But right in this thread you've already seen direct references to first sources for your most important dates with respect to helicons and sousaphones. Those are the types of sources you need to have in hand if you are going to go beyond what others have written down.

Rick "good luck" Denney

You might like to check the catalog of libraries in your state for the books that have been mentioned in other posts and the two below:
The Incredible Band of John Philip Sousa by Paul Bierley
The Legendary Sousa Band by James Schardein.
If you cannot get them by interlibrary loan, they can be bought from Amazon or other dealers.
The Bieley book especially is a good resouce. It mentions that the first Sousaphone was made by J.W. Pepper and has several pictures of band members playing raincatchers and other Sousaphones.

For this matter TubeNet is my only source. I don’t remember the poster, but the posting is from the fall of 2009.

Klaus

Found that posting, but I am less sure I remembered/interpreted it correctly, so better read it yourself:

viewtopic.php?p=307650#p307650

Klaus

You are right about the recording bell aspect, but as I understand the history, the early "Raincatchers" could be played with the bell tipped forward. The demand for what has become the modern "Sousaphone" came from other band leaders who did not want the "Icing on the Cake" sound Sousa conceptualized (which didn't really work, anyway.) The exact time-line for this seems to be not well pinned down.

- some somewhat conflicting web articles:
http://www.rugs-n-relics.com/Brass/tuba ... Sousa.html
http://www.rickdenney.com/tubas_compared.htm
http://www.jwpepper.com/catalog/pep_history.jsp

In addition to publishing achievements, Pepper also made history in instrument manufacturing in 1893, when according to John Phillip Sousa, Pepper manufactured the first sousaphone. In Sousa's words, "the Sousaphone received its name through the suggestion made by me to J.W. Pepper, the instrument manufacturer in Philadelphia. ... I spoke to Mr. Pepper relative to constructing a bass instrument in which the bell would turn upwards and be adjustable for concert purposes. He built one and, grateful to me for the suggestion, called it a Sousaphone. It was immediately taken up by other instrument makers..."

Bands of America which was discussed in a post during the last month or so has a fair bit about the inter-band rivalry involving having the largest tubas. A good read and probably the bibliography would list further original source material.

I have a feeling Carole Nowicke( spelling corrected) would be a good person to contact. She used to be a regular on tubenet. She was collecting a lot of oral histories and other material. She is/was a tubist. I believe she is a research librarian at Indiana U where she was doing doctoral work around 2000.

Now that i had time to find it.....

http://info.hper.indiana.edu/sb/page/normal/791.html" target="_blank

KiltieTuba wrote:yet I cannot access the journals because I am not a member

Seems like that would easy enough to fix.

Rick "who has joined several organizations just to get access to their archives" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:

KiltieTuba wrote:yet I cannot access the journals because I am not a member

Seems like that would easy enough to fix.

Rick "who has joined several organizations just to get access to their archives" Denney

OR - find a good research library. Many university libraries have access to lots and lots of archives. Make friends with your local research librarian.

KiltieTuba wrote:
“…Sousaphone,--a colossal, curly, brass thing, the bell of which, if recollection serves, stood for all the world like the saloon-ventilator on an Atlantic liner, high above the head of the diminutive sprig of humanity whose very soul was inside its tube.”
Daily Telegraph, London, February 8, 1908

snip

Oh yea, i found that first quote about ten minutes ago and was all _ "Wha! What a great quote to stick first thing!"

That sure is an interesting quote - if it was written in 1908, it would suggest a typical modern Sousaphone - not a tipped down Raincatcher, because ship ventilators have been that sort of shape for decades before then. like this

Some research on the photographs of old brass bands that can be seen at The Internet Bandsman's Everything Within during those transitional years will show the use of tubas, Helicons, Raincatchers, Bell-Forward Sousaphones, and other misc. low brass! - the exact dating of the photos can be tricky, but at least it is a useful collection of old band photos!

KiltieTuba wrote: While searching for Dr. Frederick J. Young through google, I came across this:
http://dinosaurmusings.blogspot.com/200 ... chive.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank



about a third of the way down is an image of two old gentlemen, one of whom has a sousaphone allegedly from 1889...anyone know the two in the photo?

Actually, yes, I do! The tenor horn is played by my friend Bob, who plays with me in a Civil War band, Philadelphia Brigade Band. The picture was taken at TubaChristmas 2008 at the Kimmel Center, in Philadelphia. I remember the raincatcher, too, because of both it's novelty and it's pristine condition.

KiltieTuba wrote: TubeNet is like the ultimate form of peer review.

No, it's not.