TubeNet

Dear Netters,

We all know that all instrument has his/her own intonations characteristics, but please can you tell me: what do you think is the best/ easiest to go with/ F tuba out there (just from the intonation point of view)? Mouthpiece and player makes a big difference I know, but I'm sure there are several insturments on which intonation is a lot more easier to controll then on others: please let me know your thoughts!

Thanks a lot,

The Yamaha series, particularly the YFB-822, have excellent intonation...particularly in the low range (including the dreaded "low C") which is often a problem on other instruments.

Posters on here will tell you that the Yamaha F tubas have a "dead" sound...I have no idea what that means.

I agree with Todd M. The Yamaha YFB-822 has superb intonation and a big sound. I owned and played the YFB-822 for a year. I recommend it.

Hi-
The new Miraphone Petrushka piston F is about as dead on intonation wise of any F tuba. My 2 cents..
mark

Mine!

Karl "just havin' a little fun" Hovey

I have found the New Miraphone Petruschka to be about the best in tune F tuba I've played for the money. Just about every note is within 2 cents of center with a fabulous low range. There are a number of people who have played these that will agree with me on this.

The other, moving into a more expensive arena would be the JBL Classic by B&S, my personal preference, though the Petruschka has me wondering if I need to add a second F tuba to the collection.

There are some new horns on the way that will give many of the "old dogs" a real run for their money. The new 2055 Meinl Weston is also extremely good, again within 2 cents either way, and it has a sweeter sound than the Yamaha and a great low C. The new rotary F from Meinl is also extremely good, though not yet available in the states (on order).

Just my $0.02.
Roger

Pardon me for being somewhat flowery here, but pitch often lies within the player. If you're not hearing, feeling, and buzzing the note in tune, no horn is going to do it for you. It's only when one has a firm grasp of pitch that these suggested tubas will begin to help facilitate intonation.

I'm sure that I'll be criticized for pointing out the obvious (often what people don't want to hear).

I'll be tooting my "wildly out of tune, practically every darn note needs a slide pull" 6450, and my "has a second slide kicker for a reason" JBL all day, hoping that my years if work with tuners, drone tones, sections, and ensembles will have paid off, and I'll be playing "in tune".

And btw... What is "in tune"? When I'm at work, all bets are off if you're using a tuner... But I'd better be able to match the clarinets, trumpets, and fixed pitch percussion... Often simultaneously! And don't even mention the tympani... Ugh!

Well, to me, "in tune" means I *don't* have to pull slides all day long. My miraphone, except for the E in the staff, is quite good in terms of intonation, meaning I don't have to do huge amounts of adjustming. My MW F, OTOH, is a sorry example of notes not being in the ballpark they should be. I "can" play it reasonably in tune, but it takes a lot of work. A more in-tune tuba would be a lot less work to play. I would presume that is the OP's purpose in asking.

MA

MA -- what models?

I own a small Yamaha 621 F tuba that has excellent and predictable intonation. With an interesting mouthpiece, the sound has some character, too. I once recommended a fairly large mouthpiece for these to open up the low register, but I have since learned that the large mouthpiece was creating an unfocused sound that really contradicts the point of using an F tuba. I have since begun using small mouthpiece--either a Mike Finn 4 or a Sellmansberger Solo--and both liven up the little Yamaha immensely. The only limitation that instrument seems to impose is limited projection--in the midst of a large ensemble, the sound has to go trombone-like to be heard at all. But in some cases, that voice is just right. I used that instrument routinely for the upper tuba part in a tuba quartet, for example.

I also own a B&S six-valved something-or-other that is not a PT model and that has the same dimensions as the old Symphonie. I have no real trouble playing it in tune, but it does not slot as crisply as the Yamaha in the low register so the accuracy of the buzz is more important. It has the projection the Yamaha lacks, and the sound of it is more colorful, particularly in the middle and upper register.

I would love to spend some time alone with a Petruschka. I've played the prototype and one production model at two conferences, and I haven't found anything I don't like about it, as can be determined within the confines of a conference exhibit, except the price, which keeps me from buying one. There was nothing about that instrument that seemed to impose any difficulty whatsoever. My wife has instructions on whom to call if one of her lottery tickets hits.

I have also played instruments quite similar to one of the above that I thought made pitches I could not understand at all. It's all in the details of those taper designs.

Rick "who does not have to manipulate slides on either of his F tubas" Denney

JHardisk wrote:Pardon me for being somewhat flowery here, but pitch often lies within the player. If you're not hearing, feeling, and buzzing the note in tune, no horn is going to do it for you. It's only when one has a firm grasp of pitch that these suggested tubas will begin to help facilitate intonation.

I'm sure that I'll be criticized for pointing out the obvious (often what people don't want to hear).

I'll be tooting my "wildly out of tune, practically every darn note needs a slide pull" 6450, and my "has a second slide kicker for a reason" JBL all day, hoping that my years if work with tuners, drone tones, sections, and ensembles will have paid off, and I'll be playing "in tune".

And btw... What is "in tune"? When I'm at work, all bets are off if you're using a tuner... But I'd better be able to match the clarinets, trumpets, and fixed pitch percussion... Often simultaneously! And don't even mention the tympani... Ugh!

I agree with you 100% John. Its all about listening and having great aural perception

Cheers
Bjorn

These ARE F tubas, which if you get one that you like playing, can do "most of" what you need from an F tuba; the harmonic series of almost any F tuba I've ever played has at LEAST one thing wrong with it. I've had some lovely B & S F tubas in the past that needed their third, and sometimes also first valve slides cut a bit, but the sound was nice.

My advice is to get the one you SOUND the way you want to on, and spend just ENOUGH time with a tuner to figure out if it's just totally unworkable for you (alternate fingerings can help sometimes).

The Yamaha 822 can be great, but I tend too agree w/Bloke on them.

The Petrushka seems like a good horn in the low range, and high range; I did not use a tuner when trying it, so YOU try it, OK? So many folks like this tuba, but I just got an F, so I didn't try it for that long...

My advice, to reiterate: TONE first, intonation second. (John H. said the right thing in his post)

(I hate typing!)
C

Lest we lead the young'uns astray, some perspective:

There is one frequency of buzz that will allow a given tuba with given valves pressed to line up all those lovely overtones that produce a rich, colorful, resonant tone. If we buzz at a different frequency, some of those overtones will be damped. The best players can play any pitch on an instrument regardless of valve position, but if they are playing a pitch unresonant in the bugle at the time, the tone will get dull and stuffy in a hurry.

Assuming one is buzzing the correct pitch, which I think all would agree is necessary for the highest level of playing, there are several strategies for dealing with bugles that are unresonant:

1. Choose alternate fingerings to find a combination that is resonant.

2. Pull or push a slide to adjust the bugle into resonance.

3. Design the instrument to allow a broad-banded response so that one can adjust the pitch of the buzz without so much loss of resonance. Doing so while maintaining a colorful sound is one of those magic combinations, and tubas that can do that are the ones pros in particular revere. The CSO York comes to mind as an example. A good B&S Symphonie might also be.

4. A combination of all of the above.

As well as learning to buzz the correct frequency every time, the best players also learn which notes on their instruments require which adjustments, so that the full resonance of the instrument is available at the correct frequency.

The rest of us may buzz the correct frequency but not make the adjustment and suffer some loss of tone. Or we may make the tuba sound its best and live with the pitch discrepancy. Or we may produce a sound with insufficient tonal clarity to be all that sure what the pitch is in any case.

But perfect buzz pitch will not overcome an instrument with poor intonation, unless it is magically broad-banded. Even then, those who can manage such instruments have learned all those little tricks. I've seen Gene Pokorny move the fourth slide on the CSO York extensively while playing in the low register, for the reason that he didn't want to undermine the tone by forcing an unresonant pitch. And for all of Joe's reverence for his old Symphonie, he still has learned valve combinations in the low register that might not translate to any other tuba (part of the gig with F tubas).

It stands to reason that some players will feel more comfortable leaning more heavily on some strategies while others will prefer different strategies. Some hate to move slides and learn alternate fingerings. Some hate alternate fingers and move slides. Some hate both and continually search for a more manageable instrument until they find something that works for them. And then there are the many of us whose tone just isn't quite good enough for it to matter as much.

As a hobbyist, I prefer an instrument that has manageable intonation without moving slides all the time, and without using a bunch of alternate fingerings. Sure, I could manage it better if I practiced six hours a day, but that advice only works for pro performers and those training to be pro performers. I think I can still seek out an instrument that allows me to play reasonably in tune without performing miracles, and I see nothing wrong with wanting an instrument that plays in tune pretty well without six hours a day of practice.

(Chris wouldn't hate to type so much if he did it as much as I do--that's one department where I probably do have six hours a day of practice over many years. But he still can enjoy the benefits of a well-designed keyboard and software that makes automatic corrections, even to the point of seeking out products that do those things better. That provides a silly illustration of my point.)

Rick "not expecting the tuba to create good intonation, but preferring a tuba that doesn't fight it" Denney

Yeah, that's why I bought the PERFECT F tuba (that doesn't exist), and plan on learning how to type efficiently one of these days.

"No tone, no music."
R. Figueroa

bloke wrote:

bttmbow wrote:...and plan on learning how to type efficiently one of these days...

Page 1 from the " Belwin Band Builder - BOOK I " of typing manuals:

ffff jjjj dddd kkkk ssss llll aaaa ;;;;

bloke "rinse, repeat"

Repeat - in all 26 keys.