TubeNet

Hey Tubenet, you guys have been so much help and have provided great support. I just wanted to start off by saying thanks.

For those of you who have seen my threads, you will probably see a bunch of repeated questions. Sorry for that, but I think this is a good time to try and get them cleared up or re ask them.

Almost exactly a year ago, with no prior experience in music, I was convinced by a friend to join band half way through my sophomore year and play the tuba. I joined (maybe not for the right reason) because it looked like a lot of fun in the football stands and I don't do much after school. Well fast forward to now and I continue to play the instrument for a completely different reason. Not just because it is fun to dance like a fool at football games, but I have a passions to play it. I love the music we play and I love the sound of the instrument and the role it plays in a band.

After a year of playing, my biggest accomplishment was getting a superior rating on a grade 3 solo called Peg Leg Pete by Luigi Zaninelli. On my review sheet, the judge said that I need to lower my jaw to open my teeth to produce a fuller tone. This has been a problem plaguing me ever since I started and still has yet to subside.

My tone is edgy and pinched. I have relentlessly been told to lower my jaw and to open my teeth, but my teeth have been opened and my problem has yet to subside. I thought it could be a support problem, but highly doubt this is it. Anything from Bb (below tuning) and below sounds really good according to my peers and director, but my problem occurs above F (below tuning). Now it isn't the worst sound in the world and I do not stick out of the section or ensemble, but when I play by myself it is very obvious that I have an edgy sound, especially anywhere from tuning Bb and above. My range is from an F (4 ledger lines below the staff) to F (near the top of the staff), and by range I mean notes that I can hit consistantly, not ones I can squeak out by luck. My sound is passible, but I am still just very unpleased. I have tried my best to part my teeth, but have had very little success.

Is this something that will come with time? I thought I would have a good tone after a year of playing. I love playing this instrument, but I don't like my sound and it's becoming rather discouraging. Am I just expecting this to happen too fast?

I'm certainly not an authority. But I now know that my biggest mistake as a sophomore in high school was NOT having a private teacher.

A private teacher is simply out of the question for me given my families financial status. I don't like to make excuses, but it really does not fit the budget. The closest thing I have to a private teacher is someone who's been playing the tuba for 4 years. He is an exceptional player. He can help from time to time, but he has stuff he has to take care of for himself too.

Find a part-time job, scrape up some change and find a private instructor. I never took lessons until I got to "real" college about a year and a half ago and it has made a huge difference. But as for your question, relax. Something I do that helps is to clinch up as tight as I can for a couple of seconds, release and strech a little. Sit down clear your head and just play, don't think too much just do what you do.

Lessons from someone good really do help. They'll be able to tell you more and inform you more of how to get better than any of us sitting at the other end of reading some text reading what you think is the problem.

I think I might be going out on a limb here, and might get completely flamed at by someone else...but if the sound is pinched and edgy, often times, opening up and just relaxing can be what will help most. From what I've heard around me, a lot of people seem to need to open up...but at the same time, for me, what I often need to do is to close the gap between my teeth a bit...
There's a fine line between pinched and controlled and too open and airy. Having a really nice tone is hard to do...and I don't have it mastered...
Having a more open mouth means needing a bit more breath support...
but that's just my few cents worth...

A good teacher is important. Period.

However it is a general observation, that pinching of ANY part of the inner-body windway (throat, jaw, teeth) is an automated compensation for the bottom of the breathing apparatus not moving sufficient amounts of air at the right and well controlled speed. If you don’t confront and solve that problem, you cannot get rid of the pinching.

Klaus

I don't deserve to post with the likes of the players here, but my students always forget that air is more important than ANYTHING. Heck, I forget this myself. If your sound is thin and 'edgy' open your mouth and blow faster air. It will require larger and more significant breath every time you take one, but faster air is always more and richer sound. You can 'pinch' out notes in any range forever, but if you want to stand out with a great, full, sound, it is always air that counts.

By the way, Bort, you kill me with your comments. I love you, big guy.

Okay - (here we go again) - which lip is doing the work? One lip vibrates AGAINST the other. When you play does the top lip vibrate against the bottom lip? Or is it the other way around? If you take the mouthpiece off your face while continuing to buzz - use your hand to find the direction the air stream is going while buzzing. If it is going down then the upper lip is doing the work. If it is going UP then the bottom lip is doing the work and this is the reason your sound has a nasal quality, is pinched and your range is so limited.

Check it out and PM me.

Roger

Funcoot wrote:I have relentlessly been told to lower my jaw and to open my teeth, but my teeth have been opened and my problem has yet to subside. ... I have tried my best to part my teeth, but have had very little success.

So ... are you ACTUALLY lowering your jaw and opening your teeth or do you merely THINK you're lowering your jaw and opening your teeth?

----

Joe Namath tells the story that, as he was walking from the locker room to the field before his first game as starting quarterback for the Crimson Tide, Bear Bryant asked him, "Are you ready to go?"

Joe replied, "I think so, Coach."

Whereupon Bear stopped short, turned and looked Joe in the eye, and said, "You THINK so? You THINK so? Boy, you got to KNOW!"

-----

So, I repeat: are you ACTUALLY lowering your jaw and opening your teeth or do you merely THINK you're lowering your jaw and opening your teeth? (Hint: practice rooms have mirrors for a reason, and it ain't to admire yourself or put on makeup.)

Roger Lewis wrote:Okay - (here we go again) - which lip is doing the work? One lip vibrates AGAINST the other. When you play does the top lip vibrate against the bottom lip? Or is it the other way around? If you take the mouthpiece off your face while continuing to buzz - use your hand to find the direction the air stream is going while buzzing. If it is going down then the upper lip is doing the work. If it is going UP then the bottom lip is doing the work and this is the reason your sound has a nasal quality, is pinched and your range is so limited.

Check it out and PM me.

Roger

Do exactly what Roger says.

Two cents ... okay, maybe three!

One thing I haven't seen addressed (maybe cause it's in enough other posts) is the fact that you are at this point after playing for a YEAR with zero prior experience playing an instrument and essentially zero lessons outside the band routine. To have what you consider a pretty solid two octave range IMO is not too shabby. {one cent}

I am in full agreement with the other posters but also understand the problems you face with private lessons. I was blessed with coming from a tuba-rich environment for a small town but there weren't exactly any instructors available in the immediate area.

I have no idea what your practice regimen is like and have not read back through your posts for hints but I am a huge fan of long tones for tone quality and range improvement as well as developing lung capacity. Don't push to reach the stratosphere but spend some time each day of practice edging up chromatically a few notes above your comfort range. As odd as it might be, an early suggestion I received was to work long tones in a dark room or at least with eyes closed to help center focus on tone quality. Long tones actually help me relax and might help alleviate some of the stress and allow you to see it as a small step up in range instead of "fighting" to reach the notes. {penny two}

In regards to embouchure adjustments, during long tones make small adjustments to your embouchure such as higher or lower mouthpiece placement or the aforementioned jaw position and see what helps. Another bit of wisdom I received early on from my absolutely incredible band director was to ensure the corners of the mouth are pulled "back" and anchored as opposed to pulling them up into a "smile". {my last cent}

As my flame disclaimer: I am also a firm believer that most advice, particularly mine, works for a certain percentage of us. Like Curly's words of wisdom in City Slickers ... The secret is the "one" thing that works for you". Jumble all the advice, keep or discard as it applies to you and keep looking until you find your answer.

Phil "Feeling extremely long-winded today and apologizing for it to all" Sloan

Many times a "pinched" and "thin" sound has little to do with which lip is doing the work or lowering the jaw. If Roger's advice yields no results it could be time to look at another common issue.

Mouthpiece pressure. By using excessive mouthpiece pressure you are stretching the aperture tunnel very wide. This will cause lip stretching and will create a pinched, thin sound. This also means that the embouchure becomes very inefficient. Endurance will also suffer because you are cutting off blood flow to the orbicularis oris.

Play on a wet embouchure and play with just enough pressure on the mouthpiece to create a seal and stop air leaks. The amount of pressure used will differ by range and dynamic, it is not static! This will be very difficult at first. Low mouthpiece buzzing (still sealed) is also a good way to train backing off of the pressure.

Disclaimer: I've taught more than a few high school tubists, but I'm not in the same league as many of the professionals who have commented already. My opinions: The comments by Roger Lewis are 100% the first issue to check out. Nothing else will work if your buzz is upside-down. I have a bit of a different approach to opening the throat & oral cavity for tone - (I have a vocal background) Sing - somewhere in the middle of your natural range, a "E" sound and then glissando into a "OO" sound a fifth or more below your "E". Notice what happened with your lips, throat, tongue and palate. The "OO" shape is closer to what you need to move the air and form an open oral cavity to make a better tone. (It may also tend to bring your pitch down a bit) Since you don't have someone there watching you this is the best I can offer to let you get a feel for what an open throat and embouchure is like. (Yes, do it enough and you'll puff up like Miles Davis, et. al.) Feel free to e-mail if you'd like to discuss.

Well I tested to see how exactly my embouchure was working, and it appears to be, "upside down." My bottom lip is doing most of the work. After discover this, I tried to play with my upper lip doing the work, but it felt very unnatural. It pains me to think I've been playing for a year the wrong way and that my embouchure literally needs to flipped upside down. What steps should I take to fix this? Just keep practicing with my upper lip doing the vibrating?

Hey guys, I taught Mr. "Funcoot" about a year ago. I did not even know him and my band director told me to teach him. At first, i'm not gunna lie, it was agony. But through the past year I have watched him mature as a tuba player and he has become an awesome friend. Just letting you guys know, for one year of playing he is doing great, and I thank you all for the advice you have given him.

Funcoot wrote:Well I tested to see how exactly my embouchure was working, and it appears to be, "upside down." My bottom lip is doing most of the work. After discover this, I tried to play with my upper lip doing the work, but it felt very unnatural. It pains me to think I've been playing for a year the wrong way and that my embouchure literally needs to flipped upside down. What steps should I take to fix this? Just keep practicing with my upper lip doing the vibrating?

Email Doug Elliot or Dave Wilken.

At this point if you are playing with an upstream embouchure, it is time to get typed just to make sure. Once you get typed you will be able to address playing issues instead of guessing blindly by what we say.

Upstream embouchures are rare, but do work. You could also be just using your embouchure incorrectly. Getting typed by one of these guys will take the guessing out of it and lead you down the right path!

First, Congratulations on the progress you've made!

Second, congratulations on finding a way to make music that you enjoy so much.

I played a lot in high school, and loved every minute of it. My old high school friends still remember me as the tuba nut. I quit after a year in a college marching band that was more interested in offending people than playing music. I was an engineering student, and didn't have time to waste on that BS.

30 years later, at my son's Jr. HS concert, my wife was talking to some other parents. They told her they play in our community band (the alumni band). I'm not an alumni of this school, but my wife told them I played tuba back in the day. They grabbed me from across the hall and said "welcome to the band". They lent me a sousaphone in October of 2008, and I played with them the first time marching in a Halloween parade 2 weeks later. Now I have my own tuba, play in two bands, take lessons, and I'm have a blast.

As I've been relearning the tuba, I've been going through a lot of the same issues you've brought up. Here's what I've been doing, that I think has helped me.

At some point you wind up with too much information, and too many opinions, especially on technique and mechanical stuff. When you feel like it's not helping, stop and try a different approach.

I saw the biggest improvement in my tone when I started listening to a lot of tuba recordings. Not the solo tuba recordings that I have and enjoy, but brass ensembles and music where they're playing the contra bass tubas. I don't do solos, I don't have an F or Eb tuba. I have BBb, and my role is to lay down a nice big fat bottom for the band to build upon. When I listen to great playing on the big horns, putting down a great sounding bottom, I start to sound better.

When I practice, I have a simple routine I use when I start. I don't want to be thinking about rhythm, or fingerings, or air, or tongue, or lips. I just imagine that the wonderful, deep, rich tones from those recordings are now coming from me and my horn.

During my practice, when I notice my tone quality is getting worst, I stop. I'll go through enough of my warm up to get the tone I want back, and then go back to my practice. When I go back to whatever it was I was working on when I notice my tone crapping out, I don't go back to it the way I left it. What I was doing was killing my tone, so I do those exercises focused on tone, I'll slow things way down, or try them an octave lower, or whatever I have to do so I can play it with the best sound I have. Then, when I've got it in my ear, and I'm happy with the sound, I'll work on speed, range, ... Lather, rinse, repeat.

One other thing, accept and appreciate that feeling of "not accomplished enough". That's what drives us to improve.

George "who didn't expect his first post to be so long"

hrender wrote: As for keeping your jaw down, I know from my reading that Mr. Bell used to cut off pieces of wine cork and make his students hold them between their back teeth while they played

Bloke has a set of precision-engineered synthetic corks, available in 0.001" increments.

In addition to what's been said in this thread, I'll add my one cent. (too poor to add 2)

Find a balance between your airstream and the buzzing of your lips: for instance, too little air and too much (tight) buzz (pinched lips, squeezing air through) will make for a pinched sound. Conversely, too much air and too little buzz will produce a woofy, or fuzzy sound.

The shape of the mouth also affects tone - which was mentioned before - a good, but not extreme, amount of space between the teeth helps. The way the oral cavity affects singing is similar to the way it affects brass playing; keep this in mind.

Also, the lips and face (as any other muscle would in a given environment) need training to perform well in a mouthpiece. Try buzzing exercises (I usually cover part of the end of he shank with my pinky to stimulate the pressure of a horn).

IF none of the advice the TNFJ offers helps you any, find private lessons.

I used to be fitness swimmer. I really got into it and I wanted to get better at it. I got a runner's high from my workouts. I read all kinds of books on the subject, and I might have picked up some useful info. Then, I decided to work with a coach. My technique, efficiency and speed improved dramaticaly. I don't know what happened to the books.