Strange notation practice

[GC]

I regularly play British brass band tuba parts written in treble clef. I have come across a fair number of arrangements that include a concert-pitch "Tuba in C" part that's a bass clef version of the combined Eb and BBb parts. I just came across a variation on this that makes no sense to me, and I am hoping that someone can enlighten me.

This chart (a great version of "Shall We Dance" by a Japanese arranger) has both concert band and brass band arrangements in the same pack. The concert band tuba parts are standard bass-clef concert pitch charts. The brass band parts have a typical treble-clef Bb tuba part transposed up two octaves and a step, the standard British practice that aligns the fingerings with trumpet fingerings. However, on the back of the Bb treble clef part is a Bb bass clef part that is the same as the treble part, only written down an octave. This puts it an octave and a step above the concert pitch.

Why leave it an octave and a step? What practical use could this have? I can understand writing an octave above pitch, as with a string bass part, but why the extra step? Is there a pedagogical method used in some other country that does this as a middle stage in training? Or this a regional common practice?

[windshieldbug]

I will posit that if one can read treble clef transposed, that one can read the bass clef part if one only knows the names of the note, without any further adjustment.

Thus, if you know how to finger a 'G' in treble clef, a 'G' bass clef is fingered exactly the same.

Does it serve any useful purpose?
Only if you have both a BBb treble clef tuba and a BBb bass clef tuba!

[Allen]

I have come across this too. It was bass clef and labeled "Tuba in Bb," and was intended to sound one ninth lower than written. It was from a European publisher. I have heard that such tuba parts are the custom in some western European countries.

I found a similar difference in recorder music. In the USA and many other countries, the recorders are treated as non-transposing (except for octaves) instruments. However, some European publishers treat the alto recorder as a transposing instrument: "Recorder in F."

Not only do those Europeans insist on speaking their own languages, they insist on carrying on with their own cultural traditions! It makes for SO MUCH stuff for us to learn.

Cheers,
Allen

[Wyvern]

That strange Bb bass clef transposed notation is used by wind bands in France and Belgium. Why they use, I cannot say, but sure is confusing to everyone else!

Belgium TubeNeter, 'oedipoes' would be the man to explain

[Timswisstuba]

That strange Bb bass clef transposed notation is used by wind bands in France and Belgium. Why they use, I cannot say, but sure is confusing to everyone else!

I agree with Neptune!

Living in the French part of Switzerland, I have come across this notation too but only in arrangements for village wind bands. The only reason for this notation I can believe is that someone in France (most likely a non-tuba player) started teaching using this notation. After generations this misinterpretation became tradition.

Every now and then I am asked to play concerts in a town band and the librarian hands me parts in Bb Treble Clef, Eb Treble Clef and/or C Bass Cleff. A good skill is being able to transpose anything on sight on any keyed tuba. In Switzerland it's rare to see transposed Bb Bass Cleff but every now it happens.

If you have to play a transposed Bb Bass Cleff part an easy way to read this is get a BBb tuba and use CC fingerings. Same thing for transposed Eb Bass Cleff; get an Eb tuba and use CC fingerings.

Ultimatly the name of the note is irrelevant. What is more important is playing the right pitch.

[oedipoes]

That strange Bb bass clef transposed notation is used by wind bands in France and Belgium. Why they use, I cannot say, but sure is confusing to everyone else!

Belgium TubeNeter, 'oedipoes' would be the man to explain

Well, to be honest, I have no idea of why that particular notation is being used in Belgium (and France and the Netherlands too I believe) and nowhere else.

But I will think about the reasons of that notation and come back to you when I structured my thoughts a bit.

Wim

[imperialbari]

Both the British brass band style of notation and the Franco-Flemish notation is likely to be rooted in the uniform fingerings all through the full range of the original Saxhorn family. Only the continental countries expected their players to be at home in Treble Clef as well as Bass Clef.

Both systems are strictly coherent within each their own logic. Only they are in conflict with each other and with standard orchestral notation.

Klaus

[GC]

Thank you, gentlemen.

[oedipoes]

Both the British brass band style of notation and the Franco-Flemish notation is likely to be rooted in the uniform fingerings all through the full range of the original Saxhorn family. Only the continental countries expected their players to be at home in Treble Clef as well as Bass Clef.

Both systems are strictly coherent within each their own logic. Only they are in conflict with each other and with standard orchestral notation.

Klaus

That's correct, as far as I can see the historical context.

The biggest advantage of reading the transposed bass clef parts is, that most of the common notes (who called it cash register?) are written in the staff !
In this notation, you don't have to count endless series of extra lines below or above the staff.
It was a big surprise for me when seeing an orchestral tuba part for the first time ! All the notes were written below the staff, and it was written in C...

I take BBb tuba lessons now, (after 15 years of euphonium) and I'm learning to transpose the orchestral notation 1 octave + 1 tone on sight.
It takes some time (the same time as learning other fingerings in my opinion) but it is worth it. Like it is now, I can actually play the most difficult pieces of music in my study books, but I can not read them that fast yet.
Just a matter of practice.

Wim