One more comparison - Mira 186 vrs B&S PT-1

[vintage7512]

I may never decide to pull the trigger, but there is no place to play all these differing instruments. I live near the BBC so I can try whatever they have. So far the VMI 3301/2 has been my favorite, but I also played a B&S 605 I liked at the Tuba-Euph conference. The old King I have been playing (2341UB) serves pretty well, but it belongs to the local community band and I want one of my own. You all compared the M 186 to the MW 20 for me and convinced me the 186 may be a more consistent choice, as I can't try them out first, but I see this Gerhard Baier tuba on ebay for $2500 and learned it to be a B&S PT-1 stencil, so I wondered if any of you could weigh these two for me. Never had the opportunity to play the PT-1 (VMI 2103?) and play mostly quintet these days. I don't want a tiny horn with no bottom, but don't need the power of a big 5/4 either. I love these discussions, even though some of you appear to get exasperated with us novices.
Sincerely,
Steve "been playing for 40 years and will ONE DAY own my own horn" Williams

[bort]

Do you know Steve Harsch? (sp?)

He's another Baltimore-area amateur player, who I played with in the BSB. He played a Miraphone 186 for years and years (30 years?) and recently sold it to get a PT-1. I don't have an email address for him, but if you can find him, maybe he can share some info.

Hope you find a tuba, Steve!

[Bob Kolada]

I strongly prefer the 2103 over the 186. Every 2103 (or stencil thereof) has been great- wonderful sound, easy to play, open feeling,.....

...and play mostly quintet these days. I don't want a tiny horn with no bottom, but don't need the power of a big 5/4 either.

I've never played a 184, but going off reviews of them that might be something worth trying. Are you also open to playing Eb tuba?

[tubatom91]

A 186 will certainly get you wherever you need to go, although it can get a litttle splatty in the low register around low-F. I have played a few and never dis-liked the experience. Of the PT-1's I've played I've liked them all. I've played the B&S PT-1, the VMI equivalent, and the Accent Equivalent. All of them played like the horn they copied. I think they play a little bit bigger than the 186 and have about the same mid range but I'd give the edge to the PT-1 in the low register. I wouldn't really want to play with an orchestra with the 186 I think I would personally have trouble being heard. I have played in an orchestra and a band with a PT-1 and had good results. Keep the copies in mind the VMI and Accent certainly have merit.

[vintage7512]

To Bob, who asked about the 184 - I played one for about a month and while I liked the sound of the high range, the low range was too 'barky' for me. It was easy to make the low f and e come out but I could not make it sound smooth and organ-like when I needed to. I( want a larger horn. The one I had o was a little beat, but with that 14" bell, it seemed just too small. Any other big believers in the PT-1?

[Wyvern]

I played a PT-1 a while back and liked it very much indeed. To me it had a much more colorful tone than the 186 and I would say is a bit bigger tuba, more equivalent to the 188.

[tubatom91]

To me it had a much more colorful tone than the 186 and I would say is a bit bigger tuba, more equivalent to the 188.

Agreed, of the couple times I played the PT-1 it was to substitute for my 188, minus the different fingerings it was quite easy to get used to.

[vintage7512]

I don't know a Steve Harsh, by the way. Sorry.
Will the PT-1 be substantially larger than the King (old style) 2341 I have been playing - I know the bore is bigger (.687 vrs around .770?) but will it also have a worse upper range? I sometimes think you get a great low range at the expense of a great high range, but I am probably wrong about that. I play a lot of euph and my high chops are strong, so it may not matter.

[vintage7512]

What would you think, for "end use," of this listing. I am presuming this is a PT-1 stencil, but of a newer vintage?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT" target="_blank

[vintage7512]

Can you say why you think that as the older horn with horizontal slide has some largish dents along some of the outside tubing and the Gerhard Baier is near new having been purchased in 2005 and comes with a nice hardcase? I called a Gerhard Baier dealer and was told Gerhard is from the Meinl family and that these are B&S maufactured. I know - 2 separate companies - there can't be that much inbreeding that Meinl and B&S are owned by the same family, can there? But there sure are a lot of them Meinls out there! Thanks for your to-the-point replies. Very helpful.

[Wyvern]

Meinl-Weston and B&S are both parts of the same company

[danzfat]

I am playing a PT 1 in band next to a 186. The PT-1 is a fair amount larger very dark sound vs the miraphone is slightly easier to play but doesn't have a sparkle in the sound like the pt1. It is Pre Perantucci i believe.

[MartyNeilan]

Meinl-Weston and B&S are both parts of the same company

...so are Marlboro cigarettes and Kraft Macaroni & Cheese.

and a habit of either may lead to a premature death.

[vintage7512]

WOW - Who knew??
And I am not sure you can die from mac and cheese...

[WakinAZ]

A couple of (attempted) points of clarification:

• Any of the 60s-70s models of B&S, or B&S stencil brands/VMI of any era, would not be "PT's", as far as I understand it. The Perantucci (PT) line is somewhat recent (since appx. the 1990s or so?), and is limited only to those tubas with model numbers beginning with PT and exclusively distributed by Custom Music.
  
  Any tuba with a model number of PT-XXX would be a B&S/Perantucci horn; a pre-Perantucci would be a plain old B&S (no modifier) and would not have a PT-XXX model number.

Many names/model #s, marketing associations, stencils, merger/takeovers, etc. thrown in add to the fun.

Eric "who cannot afford a PT, but who likes his B&S 'Sonora' stencil" L.

[vintage7512]

You tubists are really beginning to confuse the heck out of me!! I wish you could agree on this. How many friggin' clones are out there and what is the difference - aren't they all the same - like the 650 microwaves I made every day the summer after high school on the GE assembly line - Kenmoor, JC Penny, GE - all the same guts????......
What's a guy to think...

[bort]

You tubists are really beginning to confuse the heck out of me!! I wish you could agree on this. How many friggin' clones are out there and what is the difference - aren't they all the same - like the 650 microwaves I made every day the summer after high school on the GE assembly line - Kenmoor, JC Penny, GE - all the same guts????......
What's a guy to think...

Well, these are all European tubas, and Europe hasn't been in peacetime for *that* long, all things considered. Even the Berlin wall only fell ~20 years ago. If all states in the US were different, spoke different languages, only recently had the same money... it would be the same thing here.

Anyway, this might be a decent deal. I think eBay is a fine place to buy something you know about, but a bad place to buy something to try. And beyond that, it's always best to buy something you know you could sell later if you're ready to move on.

Are you ready to try to explain to someone (now) what a Gerhard Baier tuba is? As a seller, there's a big difference between marketing something that "IS a [brand, model]" than something that "I swear, is JUST LIKE a [brand, model]"

[vintage7512]

Apparently not as I let it go by. I think I will buy a Mira 186 just for the consistency. I know they will all be OK, and some may be special.

[sugawi]

Apparently not as I let it go by. I think I will buy a Mira 186 just for the consistency. I know they will all be OK, and some may be special.

Here is a special one:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37380