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A few years ago, I attended a masterclass with Chester Schmitz. He also played Euphonium during the masterclass. He was using a Monette mouthpiece with a tuba rim and a euphonium cup. Did Monette regularly produce something like this, or was that a one time custom job? Anybody have one of those?

Does anybody somewhat regularly USE one of these cheater mouthpiece things? I know that Yamaha makes one now and that Miraphone used to make one. If you use one one of these, which one do you use?

It is my recollection that one needs pro-level chops to make these work. YMMV, but I wasn't impressed when I tried the Miraphone while still in school (and I was playing tuba & euph regularly).

cjk wrote: Does anybody somewhat regularly USE one of these cheater mouthpiece things? I know that Yamaha makes one now and that Miraphone used to make one. If you use one one of these, which one do you use?

I used to do this. Many companies make them, mostly by request.

I think it became popular, especially with many of the old timers by the urgings of Arnold Jacobs and Roger Bobo being so against changing rims. Jacobs actually advised the use of these mouthpieces to aide in high range development for players wanting to improve range.

Over time, the main reasons that these two advocated the use of the same rim on both horns has been if not completely disproved, close to it. You can be competent on both and not sacrifice sound either way.

I gave up on using a doubler mouthpiece. The effort required to make a good sound, especially at the initial attack, was extremely taxing. You have to have obscenely firm corners and use quite a bit of pressure to get an even response. If not you get a fluff in each articulation before the note responds. This is the primary reason why Ferguson, with the horn guys, is so opposed to their use. I found no help in improving my range by using these doubler mouthpieces (on tuba) in my euphonium/bass trombone. It did make the initial transition from the horn and back a little easier, but that has gone away with regular euphonium mouthpiece use.

Roger Bobo's blog sums it up well, in reference to Ben Pierce.

I was brought up and trained with the clear understanding that if we changed the rim size of our mouthpiece we were in serious risk of loosing our fine edge of performance, and that was only with tuba mouthpieces! It was more or less unthinkable that one could play at an equally high level on either a tenor mouthpiece (trombone and euphonium) or a bass mouthpiece (basstuba or contrabasstuba). Benjamin Pierce has dispelled that dogma; there was absolutely nothing compromised in his performances on either instrument.

I'll add some fuel to the fire. I've been using a Doug Elliott contrabass trombone rim and cup with a large shank euphonium backbore for some time now and I swear by it. It makes the switch from F tuba to euphonium less drastic and with the shallow cup and voodoo backbore the sound is good. Of course, there are always compromises. High range requires much more effort, but the parts I play in quartet are often 3rd euphonium parts rarely venturing above a high F. It is also handy for teaching when you are switching from tuba back to euphonium. If you are interested in one of his rigs, I would recommend calling him (he's a lurker on here as well).

JCradler wrote:Doug Elliott (he's a lurker on here as well).

Yep. Doug is a great guy. Great to talk to. He can also do more with mouthpieces and embouchures than just about anyone.

I don't think you are fueling the fire, but giving great advice!

I use a 30mm contrabass mp on bass trombone and occasionally on euphonium, though I think that would be considered a different kind of cheater mp. I would love to try a tenor tuba mp on my small shank Eb though!

Kudos to OP for great thread topic.

In college I played bass trombone a lot more than tuba. (Ahhh, the days of rubber chops and no worry of playing sousaphone at a football game, followed by a 2-hour bass trombone set of pepband junk for a vollyball game and late night shedding after all that was done). But by grad school I was 100% tuba and never looked back. Until now.

Recently I bought a contrabass trombone. The thought of playing on a contra mouthpiece (glorified bass trombone unit) was not in the least exciting so I bought a small tuba cup, a bass trombone shank, and a somewhat generic tuba rim from Doug Elliott. Fits the face and fits the horn and it does exactly what I want it to do. Sure, it might not be the perfect match for the horn.........I don't care. It sounds great in the cash register, can be played with predictable intonation and response, and it does not tighten me up so much that a quick switch to tuba would be out of the question. Is this cheating?

Bump and plug for the Elliott Tuba Player's Contratrombone Mouthpiece.

bloke wrote: the "euphonium" along with "the euphonium mouthpiece" is just about THE MOST HUMAN-ACCOMMODATING wind instrument equipment that exists on the planet. (read: easy to play)

I'm pretty much agreed with Joe on this and have often thought that a good playing, physically easy to handle euphonium/baritone would be about the best brass instrument to start young players with.

As for the thing of Jake recommending using a "cheater"; except in his younger years he would rarely have played anything but tuba. He rarely used anything other than a Helleberg duplicate rim on other mouthpieces, for instance his Schilke made adjustable cup mp. He felt it best not to disturb the embouchure by using different rims but, if one had to double and use mouthpieces with different rims he felt it best to go "as far away as possible" size wise, ie tuba to trumpet. For him it was easier to use the same rim rather than totally change mouthpieces. One must remember he had pretty powerful chops!!! AND he always said (in my personal experience with him) that it was a matter of preference for the individual.

He suggested I try using one of these when I was doubling on tbone or euph but I found it easier to develop my embouchure for the smaller mp. I did find that my tuba embouchure was affected to some degree by using the smaller mp - especially if I went from small to large though the stronger the embouchure for the smaller one the less it mattered.

Using a "cheater" and practicing a tenor range instrument MIGHT help with developing the high range in the short term, just as it might be easier to use for somebody who only rarely doubles. Long term, I definitely feel it is better to use a mouthpiece which "fits" the instrument.

In the end, it may just be another tool in your personal bag of tricks and it is certainly a case of using what works for you.