iiipopes wrote:Indeed. Pre-Abilene Conn or Pre-Cyborg King. Occasionally you'll find a good Reynolds Contempora or similar Olds, but they are few and far between.
GoodMorning ,IIIPopes.. is there any four or five valve Sousaphones in CC? if so which ones are they??and do the large sousy's produce as much sound as the 6/4's?? bigbob
In a word, no. Generally, sousaphones are BBb and 3-valve. There are a few 4-valve models out there, like a particular Yammy or Jupiter model, or a couple of pre-WWII models. Historically, Eb souzys had 3 or 4 valves as well. The USA makers basically stopped making 4-valve BBb souzys around WWII.
There may be a few one-off C helicons in Europe, but because the market for souzys is concert band, as far as I am aware, nobody has ever manufactured a line of CC souzys.
Now as far as sound, the Conn 38K is quite seismic. Yes, I would put it, and its 4-valve brother the 40K, in the 6/4 class.
I think I've found just what the dr ordered.a 40ish year old king fiberglass I can borrow indefinitely or buy for cheap.a neck and a missing water key and I'm ready to play.now,somebody teach me to play new Orleans style jazz/funk thanks to all ...
Pensacola Symphony
Troy University-adjunct tuba instructor
Yamaha yfb621 with 16’’ bell,with blokepiece symphony
Eastman 6/4 with blokepiece symphony/profundo
iiipopes wrote:
Now as far as sound, the Conn 38K is quite seismic. Yes, I would put it, and its 4-valve brother the 40K, in the 6/4 class.
I've had my 40K for just under two months....it rocks...and does seem much larger than the Holton Collegiate I have had as a "wall decoration" for years....but it's hugeness seems to pale in comparison to the King Grand Symphony who-sa-ma-whatsit I used in College....I think it was a 1251. Gi-normous bell and body....but not a Giant...
I just played the King last October for alumni marching band....and I wish I had it next to me to compare the size....I guess I'll have to wait until 2011! ...Although it was reassuring that the 40K is huge....I had to "adjust" my Hercules stand to accommodate it's bell throat!
I love the pic of the Brass 40K above my post....my 40K is Satin Silver. Were most Sousas in this era Silver or Brass? Which is generally more coveted?
jc
MrBasseyPants - jc
My three Kings: 2007 King 2341 | 1935 King Giant 1271 | 1925 King 1265 Jumbo (now with four valves)
...and a 1920s Columbia Tenor Sousaphone
WARNING: This tuba player has been known to get his groove on via bass guitar as well!
MrBasseyPants wrote:
I love the pic of the Brass 40K above my post....my 40K is Satin Silver. Were most Sousas in this era Silver or Brass? Which is generally more coveted?
I couldn't say for sure, but as far as Conn sousas from the 20's and 30's, I have seen more silver ones than lacquer. (satin with bright silver trim or gold trim)..I RARELY ever see a shiny silver horn from this era. The same goes for the horns from the 50's.(?) It just seems like I see more old satin silver 20K's floating around than lacquer ones (or shiny silver ones for that matter). The old satin ones, either with silver or gold trim, generally are worth more, hold a higher value, and seem to be more of a collectors item.
KiltieTuba wrote:
You're referring to the 1265 jumbo, right, the one called "Big Bertha"? Cause the Giant 1270 model isn't quite as large (body similar to a 20K and bell 28" compared to the jumbo body of the 1265 and 32" bell), but does have a larger bore .750" vs .687-9".
I think you are right. Big Bertha is just ridiculous...but awesome. The 4-valve I played seems just a bit larger than the 40K I have now, but I have never seen them side by side. The King was big but seemed just as manageable as most of the other mish-mash of Kings made from the '30s to the 60;s that Purdue has. I would LOVE to have a Silver King 4-valver (which may actually be a giant as you say)....but they are so hard to come by.
...again as I have said before...I think the 40K plays better than the Kings did though.
jc
MrBasseyPants - jc
My three Kings: 2007 King 2341 | 1935 King Giant 1271 | 1925 King 1265 Jumbo (now with four valves)
...and a 1920s Columbia Tenor Sousaphone
WARNING: This tuba player has been known to get his groove on via bass guitar as well!
KiltieTuba wrote:
You're referring to the 1265 jumbo, right, the one called "Big Bertha"? Cause the Giant 1270 model isn't quite as large (body similar to a 20K and bell 28" compared to the jumbo body of the 1265 and 32" bell), but does have a larger bore .750" vs .687-9".
Why is the bore size so important?? does it make the horn play louder or more in tune?? and does the larger bell help it to project fuller my BBb has a 26" bell will a 30" make it sound fuller?? Please excuse the poor spelling and not knowing the correct terms.....but inquiring minds gots to know <S>.......................................bigbob
The bore has to have the right proportions compared to other design parameters like pitch, bottom bow, throat, and bell diameter.
And then what is right is greatly a matter of national, regional, local, and personal preferences.
My experience with a great variety of brasses is, that instruments with mismatched proportions become harder to play in at least two different ways. Instruments with too narrow proportions tend to be too resistant, which calls for a higher wind pressure from the player. Instruments with too wide proportions become hard to play, because the player has to move enormous amounts of air.
Wrong proportions may also lead to bad intonation, bad sound, and bad response.
Within the teaching and design communities of at least one woodwind instrument there is a talking of two types of players. The exhalers, which are very good at overcoming resistance, but who will get exhausted with too freely blowing instruments. And the inhalers, who can fill very open instruments, but who will kind of choke on resistant instruments.
As I see the brass world, top players may be of either type, but they have to have achieved skills to play with both approaches.
It has been mentioned here on TubeNet, that the King sousaphone is kind of the standard for players coming out of New Orleans. The narrower 0.689" bore gives a good response which is important for players having to provide the rhythmic drive. On the other hand bloke lacks no drive, when he plays his 0.732" Conn/Conn hybrid with a New Orleans band based in Memphis-TE since hurricane Katrina.
I have a gold plated 1927 Conn 40K. I wouldn’t call it a BAT, as it is very focused and punchy with a rather low band of formants. It would be very hard to overblow. There are these YouTube videos with these 3 sousaphone players, the lead player being a quite massive young black guy. They are immensely musical, but they and I don’t share sound ideal. I think they play King’s because they want this much brighter and penetrating sound. They would have had to work much harder on 40K’s.
KiltieTuba wrote:
You're referring to the 1265 jumbo, right, the one called "Big Bertha"? Cause the Giant 1270 model isn't quite as large (body similar to a 20K and bell 28" compared to the jumbo body of the 1265 and 32" bell), but does have a larger bore .750" vs .687-9".
Why is the bore size so important?? does it make the horn play louder or more in tune?? and does the larger bell help it to project fuller my BBb has a 26" bell will a 30" make it sound fuller?? Please excuse the poor spelling and not knowing the correct terms.....but inquiring minds gots to know <S>.......................................bigbob
What imperialbari said. It's a matter of proportion to match everything together. Now that said, the famous Yorks and the new Kanstul incarnations do have a 19 inch bell with a very small bore, smaller than the King. But the leadpipe and inner bows are also reproportioned accordingly.
I do agree that with the smaller bore combined with the matching tapered bugle section is what gives King souzys their great projection, and that the slightly larger bore again, combined with a bugle taper designed to match, gives pre-Abilene Conns great tone.
Last edited by iiipopes on Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
now,somebody teach me to play new Orleans style jazz/funk thanks to all ...
Start to play Traditional jazz a little. That will give you a good idea of many of the standard chord progressions. You will then need to team up with a good drummer (like other music coming from New Orleans, the key is in the rhythm).
Then buy some CD's of some of the New Orleans bands.
Listen to (in no particular order):
Dirty Dozen BB
Rebirth BB
New Birth BB
Soul Rebels BB
Young Blood BB (old stuff with Nat on sousaphone)
Dr John
The Meters
Bonerama
New Orleans Nightcrawlers
ect.
Then you are all set to "Funk it up"
I went to New Orleans and listened to everything I could, and then went to Louisiana Music Factory (http://www.louisianamusicfactory.com) and bought 50 cds. That was 10 years and countless gigs ago, and I can still learn from those cds.
BTW... if you are looking for a size comparison... the GIRTH of the body just above the bell collar is about 29 5/8".
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker" http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
bigbob wrote:Does anyone have any comparison pictures of all these big sousaphones?? Thanks..BB
Conn sousas
Conn 14 K 4/4 size ------ Conn 38K 6/4 size
Conn 40K 6/4 size ------ Conn 20K 6/4 size
Conn 32K 4/4 size ---- Conn 22K 6/4 size (fiberglass equivelant of the 20K)
Conn 46K "Jumbo"
All of the sousaphones listed above (except for the Jumbo) have a .734 bore, and either short action pistons or long action. Some with 24" and 26" bells. The 4/4 horns just have smaller branches/ bell throats than the much larger 6/4 horns.
In the "Jumbo Summit" photo above of three players with Conn Jumbo BBb sousaphones, I have worked on the one to the left, owned by Any Loree (in the blue shirt). I measured the valve bore as .770", with it actually exiting 3rd valve at closer to .780". The instrument needs a strong, athletic owner to carry it, but it is not hard to play at all.
Proportions, and condition of the instrument are both critically important. I normally play at least one gig on every instrument that I offer for sale, partly so that I can intelligently tell a prospective buyer about it. So, I've had the opportunity to play a lot of sousaphones. Some of my favorites over the years have been;
- an old Olds fiberglass, where I replaced the original valveset-to-body bracing system with the Allied band bracing system. which makes it sturdy and secure. And, with only simple hand tools, one can remove the valveset in less than 5 minutes. That horn, after being repaired and detailed-out, was an amazing player. It would really project well, and sounded better than one might imagine.
- a 1930's King metal sousaphone, wrapped more like an Elkhart Conn 14K than the most popular King sousaphones. It pretty-much sounded like a King 2341 concert horn, and was more roomy and comfortable for a larger player.
- a 1946 Conn 20K, rescued off of the wall of an establishment in Norfolk, Virginia. The brass had turned dark, and the remaining lacquer had turned blue-green, but with some TLC, it soon became my mainstay dixieland horn.
- a 1929 Conn 46K, now owned by Andy Loree. The sousa in the "Jumbo Summit" photo above is satin-silver, with a bright-gold-plated bell, inside-and-out, and is a marvelous player. I used that instrument for several jobs in Atlanta before Andy bought it, and aside from shoulder pain, it was pure joy. At one gig, the announcer introduced me as, "The guy playing the world's largest tuba", which was not accurate, but funny.
I have briefly owned and played more, but the bottom line is that any of them can be a great player. I now have finished the 1924 Buescher sousa, which is wrapped more compactly than a 20K but is approximately the same bore dimensions throughout. I have only gotten to take it out once, but it is a pretty intense-sounding instrument