Tiny CC vs. F tuba

[ThomasP]

If you're only choice is a CC tuba, then the case is closed. If you have access to an F play an F then decide which you like. And remember even playing F tuba on Berlioz is a cop out, he wrote for ophicleide!

[Jay Bertolet]

Without knowing the first thing about your situation or playing and without EVER wanting to contradict any teacher without all the facts, I would offer two pieces of information to consider:

1) I've had students tell me that Dave Kirk (tubist in Houston and teacher at Rice) has all his students learn excerpts on CC tuba first before trying to learn them on F. Seems to work for him and his students.

2) The Miraphone 184 CC is exactly the same size (or nearly so) as my Cerveny 641 Eb tuba. The 641 is a VERY small Eb tuba, really no more than a small F tuba that's been lengthened just enough to put it in Eb. I can easily imagine that the 184 could sound very much like a typical smallish Eb/F tuba with the right mouthpiece and approach.

Hope these two pieces of information help you!

[W]

who the heck's your teacher? It's no cop out if you could get the job done with the 184. Now if you said you "can do it" on a 6/4 CC then I would argue against that but the Mirafone 184 would work great for it. Ya, a nice B&S F would be perfect but as long as you can make it work the 184 is small enough to sound as close as you can get to an F. I'd say it would work better than some big F's out there. An F tuba would be ideal, but if the 184 is the only horn you can do to/afford, then it's perfect in your situation.

[MaryAnn]

I play a 184 CC, and I don't see any reason why you shouldn't learn those excerpts on it. I also have a small F, a MW 182, and do find it much easier to play above middle C on it, simply because the partials are farther apart. However with me playing it, it simply does not project as well as the CC does below the staff.
MA

[ThomasP]

Without knowing the first thing about your situation or playing and without EVER wanting to contradict any teacher without all the facts, I would offer two pieces of information to consider:

I think when we post we do not need to be critical of anyone's instruction. The poster never told us what school he is attending or who he(only assuming the person is male) is studying with. It could be Mr. P, Alan Baer,(insert another highly regarded tubist here at your discretion), and yet some of us on this BBS are criticizing him as though he is a trumpet player. Don't comment until you know the facts. I made sure to not go directly against the teacher's advice, instead just posting my opinion and what I would suggest.

[ThomasP]

http://www.serpentwebsite.com/hmus.htm
According to that website Symphonie Fantastique was written for both serpent and ophicleide, that was the specific piece I was thinking about when I made the statement in debate. I've always thought it was an ophicleide in C and one in Bb, guess there was a serpent in there somewhere. The things you learn daily....either way it wasn't written for what we play it on

[MaryAnn]

I'll let you know after I do some more research...I know there are but dont have many specifics. The French C Tuba is my Masters Dissertation topic! Pretty interesting stuff... The Bear in Petroushka was intended for French C Tuba also...i think it's gone from dancing bear cub into killer grizzly BAT solo over the years.

I wonder if the composer would have jumped over backwards to include a BAT sound had he heard one?

MA

[corbasse]

Are there any recordings out there?
Doc

Gardiner and Norrington recorded it with ophicleide (not completely sure about the serpent, but that probably too)
For C tuba a vintage French recording should be around somewhere, I'll have a look in the library.

[Chuck(G)]

Random tangental information:

When Berlioz saw and heard the potential of the tubas being manufactured by Adolf Sax at the Great Exhibition in London in 1891 (or thereabouts), he went back and adjusted many of his scores to include tuba, including Faust.

Wow, Rose--that's incredible!

Berlioz died in 1869.

I'm not sure that the little French teakettle in C existed in 1851 (which was probably the date you were fishing for). I suspect that what Berlioz wrote for was the little French tuba in Eb.

[UDELBR]

And Stravinsky? Certainly coming from the Rimsky-Korsokov school of Russian composers, he knew all about BAT's, but chose to score the Bear for the French C Tuba because it fit the musical climate of the Paris Opera, both in sound and tradition.

Interesting. I'd always heard a story of Stravinsky in rehearsal, conducting Petrouchka, and asking the tubaist for "biggest tuba possible". No kidding. I think he wanted it to sound strained.

[UDELBR]

There seems to be alot of Petroushka Lore floating around but I'm having a hard time finding sources for them! I would love to have that information if you know where I might be able to find it!

I was told this by (among others) Gennady Rozhdestvensky, a rather well-known Russian conductor.

[Chuck(G)]

Rose, Berlioz was already scoring for tuba before 1851, I think. The Paris Opera production of 1846 of "The Damnation of Faust" used both ophicleide and tuba.

Somewhere, I seem to recall that the 1847 performance of the Symphonie Funèbre et Triomphale also used tuba and ophicleide but I can't find my source any longer.

At any rate, Berlioz knew both Wieprecht and Sax and recounts the amicable meeting of the two in April 1845.

[UDELBR]

Somewhere, I seem to recall that the 1847 performance of the Symphonie Funèbre et Triomphale also used tuba and ophicleide but I can't find my source any longer.

Since Berlioz originally scored Symphonie Funèbre et Triomphale for three ophicleides in C and three ophicleides in Bb, and since he was such a stickler for adherence to his scores (except in emergencies), I'd be amazed if Berlioz had approved any such substitution.

[Chuck(G)]

Since Berlioz originally scored Symphonie Funèbre et Triomphale for three ophicleides in C and three ophicleides in Bb, and since he was such a stickler for adherence to his scores (except in emergencies), I'd be amazed if Berlioz had approved any such substitution.

I'll admit that, you have me at a disadvantage because I can't offer solid proof.. In 1846, however, he was certainly writing for ophicleide+tuba. Here's a cartoon by Geiger done after the performance of one of his 1846 concerts:



In fact, the Symphonie F&T was like the Requiem, the more the merrier, and Berlioz wrote various versions and reductions. In particular, note:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/fsmd/symph.htm

Since the original setting was for military band and Berlioz was well into working with tuba+ophicleide by 1846, it's a fair guess that the combination was employed to good effect.

[MaryAnn]

would someone direct me to a picture of an ophecleide, or however it is spelled?
....MA, who needs to stay off both the Off Topic and the Politics boards, apparently.

[UDELBR]

Spiffy gloves are optional.

[Lew]

would someone direct me to a picture of an ophecleide, or however it is spelled?
....MA, who needs to stay off both the Off Topic and the Politics boards, apparently.

Here's a website with a few photos and descriptions:

http://www.contrabass.com/pages/ophicleide.html

Although I came very close to buying one a couple of times, I finally decided that it wasn't worth tying up any more of my funds. Still, it's tempting...

[MaryAnn]

thanks for both the posted picture and the url.

Now, my reason for not wanting to EVER play one of these....I am TERRIFIED that someone, anyone, anywhere, will think I am playing a SAXOPHONE.



MA

[Chuck(G)]

thanks for both the posted picture and the url.

Now, my reason for not wanting to EVER play one of these....I am TERRIFIED that someone, anyone, anywhere, will think I am playing a SAXOPHONE.

Plus, you'd be the butt of silly poems:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepage ... hiclei.htm