TubeNet

Greetings, all,

This is a question that's been bouncing around in my head like a free energy basketball and I'm posing it to all of you here on TubeNet: What is it like to play music with a professional group?

I know this is weird ground, so I'll try to clear up the "professional" bit. When I say a "professional" player, I mean someone who plays music as their profession; for their living. You are asked what this person does and you say "They're a musician". Just as an example, I very much consider all the musicians in the "big" symphony orchestras as "professional". Some goes with members of the DC military bands. Those are just a couple of examples, though.

I'm sure you folks who play with professional groups (regularly or not) have played with other groups that were not so good (for whatever reason). What would you say is/are the difference(s) between the "professionals" and the not-"professionals"?

If I may just blurt out a few starter questions:

- When given a new piece of music, how long does it take to get it "ready" for performance? Is it always satisfying, or are there major issues after performance?

- If someone makes some kind of error or mistake during a rehearsal, how is it handled? In a concert? On a recording?

- Are these people you could count on to do a good job should you ever have to rely on them?

I hope you are understanding me. I have a hard time articulating my thoughts a lot of the time, so I pray that you guys know what I'm getting at.

I give you all my most sincere thanks for your responses here.

Jackson

Let me start by saying I don't consider myself a prfessional musician. I have a MA in music and make a decent chunk of my income from conducting, but I'm really a professional insurance agent. That being said, I do play a lot with professional musicians, for instance our Easter Sunday orchestra will consist of 9 pros and 11 members of our church orchestra. We will undoubtably have some problems due to lack of rehearsal time and the difficulty of the music. I can assure you that none, I repeat none, 0%, of the problems will be caused by the pros. They will show up at the right place, on time, with the right clothes on, warmed up and fully prepared. They will not miss any notes or entrances. They will not play out of tune even once. They will play the dinamics and style indicated on the page unless asked to do something different by the conductor. They will not argue, pout or roll their eyes. They will for all intents and purposes be invisible. Heard but not seen. They will be congenial and not condesending. They will do all of this with a smile on their face even if they don't mean it because when they leave they will take home a nice check, and would like to be called again. Playing with pros is so nice because they make it so easy.

Thanks for the replies. This is just what I was looking for.

I think what I'm really trying to get a hold of is the attitude of a pro musicians working in a group or for some collective goal. I've taken lessons and conversed with a number of professionals but what I'm looking for is the person on the stage doing the job.

I guess I can now flesh out the "why" of all this. Basically, I just want to straighten myself out as a musician. What I want to do with myself is to be a professional tuba player and I really do want to distance myself from the "high school band kid" mentality of what playing music is (I've heard it from others that it might just be a Miami, Florida thing, but I really don't know).

I ask for how pro's do things in music so that I can, maybe, adopt at least a few of these concepts and try to make them habits for how Ido things. While I don't have the ears, brains, mastery of the instrument, etc. of a pro, surely just the mindset can help(?)

The Jackson wrote:I ask for how pro's do things in music so that I can, maybe, adopt at least a few of these concepts and try to make them habits for how Ido things. While I don't have the ears, brains, mastery of the instrument, etc. of a pro, surely just the mindset can help(?)

I don't know. I've known an awful lot of professionals that are just complete jerks in every way...except when they are "on the clock."

My opinion is that the situations pros are in mandates their mindset and actions. Otherwise, they don't stay pros very long. Without the situations, the "mindset" is meaningless. Long-term pros simply learn how to survive in their unique professional situations.

Unless someone is willing to come on here and argue that pros just intrinsically work harder than everyone else, are better behaved than everyone else, are better team players than everyone else, etc. I ain't buying that hamburger, Jack.

Non-professionals freak out, get nervous, dress awkwardly, throw tantrums about bright lights, gossip about each other, talk a lot before the concert, talk about their GEAR a lot before the concert, practice too much before the concert, talk about "blowing their chops", play out of tune, talk about their mistakes after the concert, and generally worry about everything.

Professionals keep their cool.

(I've seen many examples of all of the above in the real world. But of course I'm generalizing, not meaning to disparage ALL non-professionals. In fact I've known several professionals who could take some lessons in behavior from amateurs...)

In my 25 years of playing for a living, two truths became evident, at least to me:

Amateur- worries about everything except the music and has an excuse, generally equipment related, if they screw the pooch..

Professionals- cares about little else but the music and knows that a mistake is part of the business.

Either way, it is a state of mind, one that you can readily assume if you chose to. Think about it.

I will make this observation: Pro's play what's put in front of them in the alloted(3-4 rehearsals TOPS) time, new, old, easy or hard. They generally will treat EVERYTHING with the same respect.

Chuck"who can remember some doozies and knows NO EQUIPMENT could have saved him in that particular moment"Jackson

I can only answer in my experience. When I get to rehearsal #1 with the orchestra, I can PLAY my part already. I also understand my "role" at any given point of the music. It is just a matter of making the group cohesive and getting the conductor's interpretation down. Typically, the first rehearsal is 3-4 days ahead of the concert; everything is over in a week. As for mistakes, they happen, but if an individual makes too many, they won't be around for long (if tenured) and if they are subs, they won't work again. In a freelance, non symphonic situation, I can pretty much sight read anything put in front of me (unless its Carnival of Venice-like) and I work to understand how my part fits in with the rest of the ensemble and try to fit in/blend with the trombone section. I always consider the size of the bass and cello section so I am playing a tuba that is appropriate. Am I in a pit, or miked?

Other things I consider: I'm ALWAYS on time, I wear the right clothes, I'm a good collegue, I pay my union dues on time.

Played on both sides, do most of my playing in amateur groups these days. If I had to sum up the differences in just one word, it would be:
INTONATION

Thanks a whole lot for the great replies, everyone. It's so great to hear this stuff.

I'm not a professional, but I played for years in band with directors that are current/former major symphony players. One was a "more serious" community group -- that is, the director was more serious, not necessarily the musicians. From the weekly lectures...it all comes down to:

Practice.

Practice is at home. Rehearsal is with the group. BIG difference between the two. Professionals practice. And practice. And practice some more. Practice their part, practice scales, practice all the un-fun stuff that amateurs blow off. They show up to rehearsal knowing their part, how it fits in, and what to expect. It hasn't been since the last rehearsal since they last played. They know the piece, or can sight-read it well enough to get through until they can practice.

I've seen too many amateurs woof it through a rehearsal sightreading, only to come back the next week obviously having not practiced. Or, they might practice once a week, and just play through the "fun stuff" and not the "hard stuff."

I played with a more amateur "for fun" group once, and it was like the movie Groundhog's Day -- every week, it was the same thing. Same problem spots, same starts and stops every week. Nice people and a fun group to play in, but some rehearsals...

There are some really terrific, wise answers here. I especially liked "intonation" as a one-word answer, to which I'd add "improving".

I have a rich career, playing in every conceivable situation in my locale. A professional is a broad term, but it encompasses some broad basics for me, and here're some things which could help you:

1) Be someone pleasant to work with. Try not to gripe, but commiserate if appropriate. Don't blame your equipment, but you can show interest in others'. Smile. Applaud good playing, be silent about accidents. Don't smell, either of personal funk or cologne. Listen, both as a player and a person. Shut up. Be kind, giving, sharing, and complimentary. Ignore a—holes, lest you become one.

2) Don’t be a slob. Dress like you care. Sometimes, when it’s hot out and everyone’s playing outdoors in the sun, shorts are okay. But no cutoffs or tanks or sloppiness. Dress for success. Have a good tux and a good suit, both of which should fit. Wear studs and a good tie and cummerbund. Have clean long ties and plenty of white shirts for busy weeks. Polished shoes, please.

3) The answer is yes. Asked to bring a stand? The answer is not “ah crap!” Need a mute and don’t have one? Get one, never answer I don’t have one unless it’s a blond gila monster in a tutu, in which case you’ll “do your best” or you “might need some suggestions where to find that.” Need a white jacket or tails? You get them, don’t kvetch.

4) Practice. As a freelancer, often I don’t get music ahead of time. Even the big groups may not send it if you’re filling in or doing a pops run. But you still practice. You must be able to sight-read, identify money notes (these could save your bacon!), and play with others. Make friends with a bass trombonist and play scales and duets often. Start a chamber group and play often. Learn to tune on the fly - don’t rely on your instrument, rely on you (your horn can be stolen or damaged – then where are you?). Practice the piano. Sight-read on the piano. Even if you suck (like I do) you’re reading multiple lines, and reading a single line on your main instrument will be a breeze.

5) Learn to swing. Learn your scales. Practice blue scales and play some music-minus-one jazz improve records. You’ll run across other styles besides Mahler. You may play chorus line. A Dixieland trio in front of a band. God knows what. You must be able to do it competently.

6) Be flexible. Unless you’re the conductor, do what the conductor or section leader says (you’re never the section leader). They have the vision. When you’re in charge, then you can run the show. You might be surprised when the “wrong” interpretation could give you the best experience of your life!

7) Learn to play quietly. Dear god, and for the love of St. Pete, learn to play quietly. You have to be able to be behind the show, let others shine, obey the hand, ride under the bass bone, join the basses, etc. It’s not all Fountains all the time. And for the love of god, don’t play fountains every time you show up for a gig. We know you can do it… you better be able to or you have no business accepting money to play. Get ready to work instead. And shut up and try some pianissimo scales instead.

Finally, when playing with “amateurs”, be all of the above, and set an example. Don’t begrudge the lower standards of playing, bemoan the idiot choral conductor (that may be redundant anyway : ). Don’t correct others, but work with them; at the break say “why don’t we all try that one part again together.” You can scream at your car radio about your frustrations. Leave them there.

One basic rule – don’t work to become a pro unless you have to. I mean that that’s the only thing which will make you happy, that it’s the thing you must do. Otherwise, you could be in for a great deal of frustration and unhappiness, along with almost guaranteed poverty.

J.c.S.

Sing. Make every note count. Strive for perfection. And when you screw up, get back on immediately. No excuses. No whining. Now if only I could live up to that.

Oh, yeah. I forgot ---- LISTEN.

Speaking as a congregant that is occasionally peppered within a pro orchestra - I can say playing with a professional group is an incredibly intimidating, wonderful experience. In our fair city the Pros are absolutely, hands-down, world class players (a must in this city). It's great to play with them as they are always prepared, have wonderful tone and are always pleasant to be around. However, I've played in these situations (usually church) enough to know I'd rather be in the choir (I think ours is pretty good) or in the audience enjoying the craft these musicians have spent their lives perfecting.

Since these are church experiences I also make it a point to support our Worship and Music Pastor in justifying hiring a complete orchestra as opposed to peppering a few of the church's own congregants within a pro group.

Bloke and J.C. are spot-on in their comments - if you are going to play with Pros, you need to learn to act like a pro, ramp it up a few notches and hang on.

Ricko

goodgigs wrote:Also be aware; most of the guys who your thinking of as tuba players - are professional musicians who specialize in tuba.
Gene Pokorny (Chicago symphony) didn't play tuba until he played clarinet for years.
Joe (Bloke) played professional guitar for years before picking up the tuba.

On the other hand, Malik Rose was all-state in tuba as a high school sophomore, but now only plays (tuba, trombone, bari sax) for fun.

MartyNeilan wrote:Played on both sides, do most of my playing in amateur groups these days. If I had to sum up the differences in just one word, it would be:
INTONATION

And as important - if not more so is RYTHM Even a wrong note played at exactly the right time can be MUCH better than the right note, perfectly in tune with beautiful tone, played at the wrong time. A good example is the "Bolero" test posted here recently. Years ago I saw a video of LAPO with Roger Bobo playing this. It is NOT what one would call a challenging or interesting looking part. Roger made every note important and with his perfect timing did much to give the performance its drive. Some of the greatest tuba playing I have ever heard when it came to making his part contribute to (as opposed to dominating) a great ensemble performance.

What's it like in such performing situations?

If performing - even lousy charts with less than stellar groups still makes you feel good you are in the right job. if you find you don't get enjoyment and merely go through the motions, find something else to do because those hearing you will also not feel good about the experience.

One of my greatest musical experiences happened some years ago when I took a small community band through rehearsal as conductor. Player's ages ranged from grade seven through grandparents. Under their regular conductor they tended to battle just playing the notes with little feeling and would often be talking whenever they were not actually playing.

On this night I took one of the technically simplest pieces - Aura Lee - (Love Me Tender in the Elvis world) And made up a story to go with it. It was a love song sung by a soldier thinking of his one true love as he lie dying on the battlefield. When the players tried to sing that love song they suddenly started making real music instead of simply playing the notes. They were listening to each other and as the melody was passed around took their turns to either sing the song or support the soloist at each point. Amazingly, intonation and rythm were no longer problems as each little part blended to make the whole much greater than the sum of all the parts.

For any musician, but especially a tubist, good music is made ONLY if every note is played as if it is important - be it as a solo or as support.

I have found this discussion to be very interesting. As a student I have noticed some of the same things, at the level I'm at there are 2 kinds of people: people who want to become professional musicians, and people who don't plan on playing music after high school. Both are perfectly acceptable, but as one of the musicians striving to play professionally I sometimes feel frustrated when everyone around me doesn't care nearly as much about music making as I do. I feel, and many of the people that I have played with that also want to play professionally, that music isn't just something that you do every once in a while but it is something that you have to commit your life to. It takes long hours of practice, working on tediously boring etudes until they are perfect, playing scales, arpeggios, and all that good stuff. People that don't share that view are the ones that can't play their parts in rehearsals, they complain that the can't see the conductor because the person in front of them is too tall, their pencils lead is broken or they just forgot it, they have a broken reed, they forgot their bow tie at home before the orchestra concert, they show up 15 minutes into rehearsal, etc... the list goes on and on... Oh yeah, and the text their friends in the middle of rehearsal(stupid)!!!

I spent last summer studying at interlochen arts camp where nearly everyone was planing on become professional musician, no one exhibited the characteristic of the wanna be musician slackers described above. Music was handed out on friday every week, the first rehearsal was sunday afternoon, everyone had notes and rhythms down by monday, by Wednesday stylistic things were accomplished, by friday everyone meshed perfectly and we sounded like professionals, because we all had the work ethic.

This year I am going to a public school where I am the ONLY person who intends to become a professional musician after high school. Suffice it to say the high school band is just awful, no one practices but me, their instruments sit in the school all year (right now we are on spring break and I would bet the band room is full of instruments minus 1 CC tuba), I'd even go so far as to say I'm the only one who knows all my major and minor scales (I can't even fathom how someone could be successful at all in music at all without knowing them). The other people in the music program at my school just don't care, or are too lazy to put the work in to be become good musicians. It takes damn hard work to play music beautifully and most people aren't willing to do that, or are willing to do that one day a week in the middle of rehearsal (those are the amateurs) and some people put in that hard work and become professionals, which is what I plan to do.

Luckily next year I will be studying at the prestigious Interlochen Arts Academy where I'm sure everyone plans to be professional musicians, so I won't have to deal with this lazy crap anymore.

I have found this discussion to be very interesting. As a student I have noticed some of the same things, at the level I'm at there are 2 kinds of people: people who want to become professional musicians, and people who don't plan on playing music after high school. Both are perfectly acceptable, but as one of the musicians striving to play professionally I sometimes feel frustrated when everyone around me doesn't care nearly as much about music making as I do. I feel, and many of the people that I have played with that also want to play professionally, that music isn't just something that you do every once in a while but it is something that you have to commit your life to. It takes long hours of practice, working on tediously boring etudes until they are perfect, playing scales, arpeggios, and all that good stuff. People that don't share that view are the ones that can't play their parts in rehearsals, they complain that the can't see the conductor because the person in front of them is too tall, their pencils lead is broken or they just forgot it, they have a broken reed, they forgot their bow tie at home before the orchestra concert, they show up 15 minutes into rehearsal, etc... the list goes on and on... Oh yeah, and the text their friends in the middle of rehearsal(stupid)!!!

I spent last summer studying at interlochen arts camp where nearly everyone was planing on become professional musician, no one exhibited the characteristic of the wanna be musician slackers described above. Music was handed out on friday every week, the first rehearsal was sunday afternoon, everyone had notes and rhythms down by monday, by Wednesday stylistic things were accomplished, by friday everyone meshed perfectly and we sounded like professionals, because we all had the work ethic.

This year I am going to a public school where I am the ONLY person who intends to become a professional musician after high school. Suffice it to say the high school band is just awful, no one practices but me, their instruments sit in the school all year (right now we are on spring break and I would bet the band room is full of instruments minus 1 CC tuba), I'd even go so far as to say I'm the only one who knows all my major and minor scales (I can't even fathom how someone could be successful at all in music at all without knowing them). The other people in the music program at my school just don't care, or are too lazy to put the work in to be become good musicians. It takes damn hard work to play music beautifully and most people aren't willing to do that, or are willing to do that one day a week in the middle of rehearsal (those are the amateurs) and some people put in that hard work and become professionals, which is what I plan to do.

Luckily next year I will be studying at the prestigious Interlochen Arts Academy where I'm sure everyone plans to be professional musicians, so I won't have to deal with this lazy crap anymore.

Oh and I forgot the most important part, the reason I want to be a pro is because I am inspired by music, it is my passion. That's why I work so hard, because I don't know what else I could do.

I'm right there with you, tubainty. I was fortunate enough to get into the program I'm in now and out of the high school mess. I couldn't imagine going back to it now much less after studying at Interlochen!

Bloke: I think I get what you're saying on the listening-imitating thing. I think a really beneficial thing I did back when I started getting serious about playing the tuba a couple of years ago was listening to Gene Pokorny's excerpts CD all the time. I listened to those excerpts all the time and I think that having his sound be the standard for what a tuba should sound like, my sound improved by leaps and bounds.

I definitely hear you on getting out of "tuba music". The internet is such a great resource for this and I have a couple of opera arias next to me that I'm going to play around with. It breaks up the monotony of practice and, like you said, really turns it into fun.

Thanks again for the fantastic replies, everyone. These are so great!