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Hello, LJV,

I don't think reading the Bordogni one octave down was ever "taught" to me. I was told to get the book, so I got the book, and then just played it (down one octave). I agree with your friend that it is a basic skill necessary.

I'm not a fan at all of this musical tunnel vision that says "I am a x player and need music written for x in order to play my x". To me, it is not a very good thing to just be locked in as "a tuba player" and not bother to at least see what else is out there. I have lots of fun downloading opera arias, solo flute or 'cello works, and orchestral violin parts from the IMSLP (Fantastic resource!) to play. Most don't get much work done on them, but it's like sweet that I treat myself to every now and then while getting the real work done in etudes and solos.

LJV wrote:My friend felt that this is an absolutely basic skill for a tubist.

Of course it's basic!
Maybe because waaay back in the days of early lessons
I was given Rochut, Arban, and other etudes and
scale studies published for trombone/baritone with
the simple instruction: "play them down an octave",
that I don't understand why something so natural for
a tuba student could possibly be a problem.



Git-R-Done

bloke wrote:These days, I would rate

1/ being able to read "changes" and being able to read "the number system"
2/ being able to read treble clef
3/ being able to read Bb treble clef

far more important than being able to read bass clef at the octave...

But not by much. If you have already decided that you want to be a professional musician, you need to read a lot of music. In a lot of clefs and transpositions. It's part of your adopted language. And someday, it will help you. As bloke and others have alluded to, you never know where your opportunities will arise. Teaching trombone at the university level, even though it isn't my "major", I am finding that my training, which included all of the above, is making me money. And how many tubists are there who couldn't/woudn't double on euph if the opportunity arose? So, if you don't want to transpose, just beg or borrow a eupher and play Bordogni as-is, where-is. That yields a double benefit.

LJV wrote:. . . He stated, with some dismay, that this student could not read from the trombone versions of Bordogni and transpose the octave . . .

Before we get so bent out of shape, let's ask, just how old is this student? A twelve year-old tubist can be forgiven for not knowing multiple clefs and not having learned some transpositions.

David Bordgoni Guy Schwartz

LJV wrote:I had an interesting conversation with a friend about one of his students. He stated, with some dismay, that this student could not read from the trombone versions of Bordogni and transpose the octave. My friend felt that this is an absolutely basic skill for a tubist.

Sounds like you need to get more interesting friends...

Learning to read high bass clef parts down an octave is about as hard as learning to ride a bicycle. Once you get it, the skill stays with you and comes in handy. For example, I sometimes get asked to play a contrabassoon part on tuba. The first time was when I was in high school, and I had a day and a half to prepare the Brahms 1st symphony. I could do it because I had been working with the Arban trombone book and had been playing bass parts in a dance band. It also enables you to play a lot of duets with trombonists and euphonium players. Just tonight I was playing along with a CD of Steven Meade; great stuff, both challenging and rewarding when you get it right. ("Classical duets", published by DeHaske) My euphonium student enjoys working on duets, and I think they are a great teaching tool.

Learning to read straight treble clef (down two octaves) is a little harder, but worth the effort because most of the good tunes are in treble clef.

Being redundant here: reading trombone parts and string bass parts is a skill just about any tubist can and should learn in their second or third year of playing.

Eric "who was forced to double on bass in high school" L.

I'm just gonna say it - chances are, if a student cannot read down the octave easily, they probably can't read music easily.

Maybe I'm unique, but I really didn't have to think about octave trasposition. I just did it. I had to learn to read tenor clef at one point, so I learned it. Same with treble clef. I suppose Bb would be fine to learn (just like tenor clef) but I always whip out a BBb tuba, so there's no real need to transpose (it's just a big-a$$ cornet).

Really, once you can read the clef with facility, you can drop the octave at will.

Practice the piano!

J.c.

J.c. Sherman wrote:Really, once you can read the clef with facility, you can drop the octave at will.

eggs-ackley

There is a local intermediate school near here that will not start players out on tuba (only flute, clarinet, trumpet and trombone are offered to beginners). So by the next year, most of the tuba players have been reading trombone music for a year. The 6th grade students I had at that school were able to do the transposition without a second thought. The middle and high school kids from the same district could also do it easily. The students at other schools where I taught couldn't do it.

I think it's as basic to playing the tuba as breathing and scale exercises.

In my own experience in the theatre world, I read bass parts on tuba and tuba parts on bass all of the time. Many times the music directors may not care or have time to worry about the parts, they want what they want now. This probably only happens in New York, Chicago, or L.A. (or other theatre towns), very often, but it seems to me to be a necessary skill.

I didn't start reading "trombone music" until I started college. It took about a semester for me to feel comfortable enough to read as written. The ONLY reason I even learned this "skill" is because my teacher was a trombone player.

I don't think it's anything to be dismayed about. Your friend is a teacher....so teach the student this deficiency...

LJV wrote:

TexTuba wrote:I don't think it's anything to be dismayed about. Your friend is a teacher....so teach the student this deficiency...

The student is a senior in HS and suddenly wants to be a tuba player. Sounds as if he is a little (lot?) behind in many areas. Teachers can't waive a magic wand, unfortunately.

I was teaching a student like this about a year ago. He "wanted" to be an "orchestral" tuba player. He did NOT want to teach, in any way. Because all the pro's don't teach...Anyway, he was like a big fish in a little pond kinda deal, and with an ego like that it's hard to progress. Not saying this kid has that same problem...just sharing.

It is a natural part of tuba playing to take octaves down or up...I mean, how many of us do so when NOT requested? "Hey, let's take this note down an octave!"

David Schwartz wrote:

LJV wrote:. . . He stated, with some dismay, that this student could not read from the trombone versions of Bordogni and transpose the octave . . .

Before we get so bent out of shape, let's ask, just how old is this student? A twelve year-old tubist can be forgiven for not knowing multiple clefs and not having learned some transpositions.

David Bordgoni Guy Schwartz

Why? 7yo piano students know "multiple clefs".

And...can someone explain why it's hard to read down an octave for players who spend all their rehearsal time playing the normal tuba part down an octave (because playing the not written is "boring")?

sloan wrote:And...can someone explain why it's hard to read down an octave...?

I think the ones who do have trouble with this might be looking at a note and thinking about what button to push rather than what note they are actually playing. I was shocked and dismayed by the number of middle school (and high school) students who do not really read the music. They don't know the note names! So it's quite a chore for them to play a lower version of a particular note (or a bunch of notes) when it takes them a few seconds to figure out what the original note is in the first place.

...players who spend all their rehearsal time playing the normal tuba part down an octave

I guess these are the ones who do get it, to an extent. They get the idea, but being unfamiliar with notes out of their normal band music range, they may struggle with reading trombone music above the staff. We all seem to agree that it's easy enough, and there are several examples of its usefulness. Perhaps these students have simply never been presented with a situation where they had to read trombone (or string bass) parts. I like to think they'd be able to figure it out if they had to.

Just out of curiosity, how many of us who know how to transpose the octave had piano lessons for any length of time? (might even be the same with quality voice lessons) I know that is one of the reasons I am pretty good at it. Another part of the equation would be the lack of a mentor figure on the student's instrument. A good player sitting in the chair next to you or one that you get to talk with occasionally can help a young player immensely. Finally, if he's the teacher why doesn't he teach the skill? It takes work but it will be worth it in the long run.

Sou

ArnoldGottlieb wrote:In my own experience in the theatre world, I read bass parts on tuba and tuba parts on bass all of the time.

Ditto! And for what it's worth, this can be a key component in staying a working musician. I work for a theatre that does all original works. Most of the composers are very aware of each instruments range, but occasionally there can be *errors*. At one of my first rehearsals I noticed that some of the music went below the range of the bass (even 5 string). I didn't raise my hand and say "Hey, this isn't right." I simply reworked the part in my head so that it lay within the range of the instrument and didn't sound as if it jumped all over the place. The MD caught me afterwards and said that he notice what I did and appreciated it. He further said the last bassist they had would always make some smart-*ss remark about how the composer/orchestrator should have know better. Part of the reason I am still there and the other guy isn't is I know when to shut up, do my job, and be a musician rather than a bass player.

Same with tuba gigs. Most gigs, if they have music at all, are bass music. Dropping that octave at will makes for more gigs.

So, in short, DON'T learn to change octaves. More gigs for me.

My biggest problem is when I see trombone/string bass/some at the top of the bass clef I automatically think of it in Bb euphonium/trombone fingerings/positions, but when it's something that I play down an octave I am usually playing Eb tuba*. I think I need to rewire my brain, but I'm happy enough that I'm somewhat functional reading concert pitch treble clef (jazz lead charts and such) on my Bb horns.

*It would be so much easier if I played Bb tuba, but I like what I got! I suppose I could just get a 6 valve euph built up for all those tuba-playing-string-bass gigs I get (about once ever 3 years) and play it down an octave...


Anyone got a clean big euphonium body and a bunch of bass trombone valves laying around?