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[So, I gave in to tuba-lust and ordered an American Heritage rotary ("Schillbrunner"/Hirsbrunner 192 copy). Rather than reinvent the wheel, I will share with you some snippets from some email exchanges re: the Schillbruner I had with a fellow TubeNetter who had also recently purchased one (not the guy currently selling his on TN). Please forgive the slipshod formatting - I just wanted to get the basic thoughts down. All the below comments are mine, except for one brief bit from the other guy, which is noted as his.]

I happened to pick up a Schillbrunner of my own from the trucking company depot today. After an hour or so of noodling on it:
1) As a sharp blower I'll have to get the main tuning slide lengthened about 2 inches.
2) scale is pretty good, no turd notes, some better than others, will have a better idea when the main bugle is at A=440 instead of whatever it is now. #1 slide too long most likely, will probably have cut one inch or so, #2 a smidge too long, maybe cut 0.5 inch. #4 slide plenty long, me happy. Will wait on these to get used to overall horn.
3) build quality nice, as good or better than a new King I sold a few years ago. Rotors could be quicker, but will wear in, not even sure they are lubed well yet. I am having my local tech pull the valves tomorrow and make sure the ports are sized right, no burrs, etc. Just to make sure there are no surprises inside. valves all have good compression. I figure anything other than crappy valves that are not aligning right or engineered wrong can be fixed, but all seems well so far right out of the box.
4) Laabs has no return, just exchange, so the minor things I would have to pay for are less than the truck shipping for retail customers like us. Assuming my tech finds nothing crazy bad in there, I'll keep this one
5) There will be a learning curve to playing this one. It is not plug and play, and I play a lot of different horns. My usual large mouthpiece choices of a TU-33 or PT-88 seemed to not respond well, so I went with a TU-29 (kind of a German Bach 18) for now. There is good stuff in there to get out.

btw, this thing ain't small if it's the Hirbrunner copy, it's a larger 4/4 bordering on 5/4 horn and built solid. maybe 5% smaller than a miraphone 191/1291 overall. Same style wrap more or less, short/squat/heavy.
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I had my tech check the valves today, and he was impressed with the quality and fit of the valves. He thought they might even be sourcing the valve blocks from Eastern Europe and just doing the assembly in China. So that seals the deal, I can have him fix the little stuff that pops up (or off!), as long as the valves are good. I have noticed a couple of things that should be square, parallel or flush that are not, but overall I still consider the quality acceptable for the price. I tooted a bit more in a bigger room with better acoustics this evening, and am liking the sound and response better.

Laabs says they will order the slide and it will take 4-6 weeks, slow boat apparently... I'm having my tech order the tubing to extend the slides, and if the Laabs slide shows up I will happily eat a little crow.
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The response seems pretty quick now that I went smaller on the mouthpiece. I am only on day two and less than 2 hr of playing, so my opinions are very sketchy. I use a TubaTamer, so the weight is not a big issue, but it is not light. I would put the size at 9/8, or 4.5/4.
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Other guy: "Above Bb at the bottom of the staff works really pretty well for me. Anything below that, and I gotta be careful -- the notes don't just pop-out, and I might wanna call that 'stuffy'. "

Me: "Mmmm, about the same. Things kind of disappear between BBb and low F four ledger lines below the staff. Grrr. It's going back... That deficit in the lower end of the meat and potatoes range, where a lot of the killer blattissimo parts are, is just not working for me. I tried every mp of the dozen or so I own, and the only thing that addressed the response issue even remotely was a smallish Helleberg 7B. Basically pinch the bloody thing off /throttle it back to save it from itself, so I don't have to sneak up on some of the most important notes on the BBb tuba - No thanks."
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Yeah, I A/B'd the Schiller vs. my old B&S/Sonora tonite, and that sealed the deal. The B&S blew the Schill away, even though it is a smaller overall horn with a lot of hard years on it. When I mash a button down and buzz, I expect things to happen, not *hope* things will happen
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I agonized over this for a couple of days. And I asked Old Dominion to save the box for me for one week, but they did not. Now I have to drop it off at a professional shipper to build a box and palletize it (boxed horn will not fit in my car). Laabs has only exchange, so I will have to get one of their Alex/VMI/B&S copies (model Double BB) and hope for the best. Losing my [butt] on this one. Oh well....

Disappointed and more than slightly annoyed, shoulda known better than to buy from anyone who does not have a real trial/return policy."
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So I am now waiting on their VMI 101 copy:http://www.schillerinstruments.com/prod ... _BB_nickel to show up. A buddy of mine has the M&M version ("Symphony model", same horn made by JinBao) and it is as good as my original "Sonora"/B&S stencil from 1960s East Germany. They have been making this horn for years now and seem to have it down. I'd rather have my $1600 back, but, again, Laabs has no return, only exchange.

Epilogue: The VMI 101 copy sent as an exchange played worse overall than the Schillbrunner, so I sent it back and got a refund from Laabs, on an exception basis, since they had nothing that would suit me. Overall I am now neutral on Jim Laabs and definitely not a believer in "China 2.0" tubas; the overall consistency and playability are just not there yet. My friend's JinBao tuba plays great, but the two I ordered were boat anchors. I realize other folks on this board have ordered various Schiller and M&M (JinBao) horns and have been pleased with them. I am happy for those folks. I just wanted some additional info available for anyone considering one of these tubas. I will now duck...

Eric "definitely not a shill" L.

Thanks for sharing. I appreciate the review and will keep in mind.

Thank you for your story. I am sorry it did not work out for you. I think I'll stick with what I know.

The M&M sousaphone owned an Ecuadorian band that I sometimes play with is incredible out of tune. They bought it (for too much) because it was shiny and needed "the look". It's nice to go to "paying gigs" with a mouthpiece, but hope my friends don't hear me play.
YMMV
Peace.
ASG

Erik, thanks for the very honest narrative. The dealer comes off very well in your story, he sounds like a great guy to work with. It's too bad none of these horns worked out for you but your experience has been a real education for everyone who takes the time to read it.

WakinAZ wrote:... Things kind of disappear between BBb and low F four ledger lines below the staff...."

Seems like they did too good a job copying the Hirsbrunner BBb.

Hi-
So sorry you have had problems with your clone. It seems that this model BBb Schiller/Laabs/Jin Bao tuba is A=443 and some folks are having problems with this particular model. If you want a BBb at a good price, I would take a look at the Schiller/M&M 1291 BBb clone, or the Baltimore Brass/Dillon BBb clones. See Dan's/Tuba Tinkers review/pics/thoughts/comments on his BBb M&M aka Jin Bao 1291 clone.
I can say that my Schiller, aka M&M, aka JZ, aka Dillon, aka Jin Bao, CC 186 5v clone is superb, I have had it over 6 months, it has served me well, it has paid for itself in gig use, and I highly recommend it. No problems at all! Intonation on the money, great in all ranges, wonderful sound, solid horn. My M&M,aka Jin Bao, aka Schiller Eb compensating 'Fletcher' clone is also terrific---no complaints. M&M and Dillon and BBC (?) will be at ITEC--I suggest trying the clones out. I have had no problems dealing with M&M/Michael and they DO have a guarantee and return policy--maybe best to contact Michael if you are having problems with Laabs. I know Michael's prices (and he is a TubaNet sponsor AND ITEA advertiser) are excellent too. BTW, the 1291/2 CC clone should be at the M&M booth by then also .
Regards-
mark
jonestuba@juno.com" target="_blank

I found Laabs really great to work with-------friendly, courteous, efficient, etc.

Like Mark's horn, my Schiller five-valve CC tuba is a wonderful instrument-------built well, in-tune, very good valves, huge dynamic range, nice case. Same for my Schiller three piston valve alto trombone.

Based only on my two Schiller horns, I had begun to think this line of brass instruments might present some serious competition to higher cost horns. It's disappointing that Eric's Schiller BBb apparently didn't match up.

RE: Jim Laabs Music, I will only say I am neither a promoter nor a detractor. Efficient? Not really. Friendly and courteous? Most of the time, although one of the folks there told me I was "kind of hard to please" (?)(!). Also, I stopped receiving replies to messages sent via eBay once they realized they had lost the sale. I had to do everything verbally once the deal started unraveling. Bottom line: when faced with a no-nonsense customer who made it obvious, in a courteous and respectful way, that he would pursue a full refund through whatever means necessary, in spite of their stated policies, they did the right thing.

I would consider another Chinese horn only if I could play it in person *and* have it checked over by a competent tech during a trial period.

Eric "whose brief infatuation with Chinese tubas is officially over" L.

Eric

Im sorry the Schiller didn't work out for you. There is no tuba being made today or, for that matter, ever been made that will be a good fit for all players. I just got back from performing a concert with my brass band and was very pleased with my Schiller--the low register was clear and in tune with a big sound. It took some time to get used to it, but was definitely worth the effort.

Jerry... did I meet you at ACB last week?

cjk wrote:

WakinAZ wrote:... Things kind of disappear between BBb and low F four ledger lines below the staff...."

Seems like they did too good a job copying the Hirsbrunner BBb.

Ditto.

TubaTinker wrote:Jerry... did I meet you at ACB last week?

Nah...couldnt make it this year--way too much work to duck..err do

JJ

Eric,
You're only the second person I've heard of who got a refund out of Laabs. While I'm very interested in their Shillerha version of the 642 euphonium, what has stopped me is the possibility of either a) cost of shipping back and forth if I get a dud, or b) not being able to get my money back if the thing simply won't work for me. Maybe Bloke would find one for me on his trip, for a fee.

PEM or email me and let me know more specifics of how you got your money back, if there is anything that you haven't posted in this public forum.

My second choice would be the Nirschl, also apparently a 642 copy, but it's twice the money. Whether it's worth the double funding to have the ability to send it back and get a refund, I just don't know.

MA

I'll second the Dillon CC clone. I have a student who purchased one back in January and I couldn't be more pleased with the quality. The horn is very even and in tune, and quite frankly, plays better than a Miraphone 186 that another student of mine owns.

They aren't all as good as this particular one, but that is the rule, not the exception, to any horn manufacturer.

It probably won't be the last instrument you would ever buy, but may ensure that when you want that 8 - 12K horn you are making a more educated purchase.

Jon

Hi! I have been assured by several Jin-Bao "dealers" that they will stand behind the axes! I remember reading several posts in this area recently. If you call all the different sellers, you will receive different answers about warranty work! Some of 'em insist on doing major work in house,for good reason, as not every one lives within 100 miles of an Oberloh Caliber Craftsman, while others will pay for "approved" shops! You are paying the mark-up on the horn so the "big boys", MM ,TE,Dillon,et al can keep their lights on and still cover warranty work! I've heard MM is really good about keeping an inventory of replacement parts, and I imagine that's par for the other guys too! I also am going to stick with the newer clones, as I'm sure that the above sellers have been pushing the quality up with each new clone! It's just so sad that our wages are only up a fraction of prices(for EVERYTHING) since the '60's! There are some good horns coming from American makers again, but most of us can't afford 'em! Best of luck, Al.

When I was in Maryland and visited the Baltimore Brass Co., one of the young sales staff pointed out a Chinese Miraphone 1291 copy. He was very impressed with it and stated it is every bit as good as the real deal - Miraphone 1291. It would imagine David Fedderly may personally inspect and play each Chinese tuba that comes into the shop to see if indeed it does pass muster. This is probably the only way that Chinese tubas and other instruments will improve and have consistent quality control from one instrument to another.

I know in a recent conversation with Matt, at Dillon music, that Mr Walters goes through the axes he sells to ensure they're right! T.E. MM, and the others are selling the heck outta these clones! I tried the 5-valve 186 CC clone recently and was pleasantly surprised! I have had conversations with a couple of independent techs who lauded the 1291 clone too! As I've said before, I think this is a golden opportunity to score a decent axe while prices are down! I would really like to try one of the Miraclone BBb's side by side vs. other entry level axes! If I lived close I would have already been at T.E. or Dillon! Al

Hi! I just wanted to add something. While I understand the demand for more affordable Tubas, I always try and sell people on Kanstul or King tubas when money is not the issue! I think that soon, the market will even out, and prices on the Chinese axes will come up enough to tip the scales in the favor of American and European horns, at least the larger stuff(Tubas, Euphs, French Horns)soon. The problem is that there is just no foreseeable way a company in the States, or Germany,ie, can compete in the area of student Trumpets, Clarinets,Flutes, Saxes,etc...! The student instrument market used to be what kept the doors open at our factories! Al.