TubeNet

Hi Tubenet,

I am a senior in High School and my upper register is still facing one major issue: I cannot for the life of me play a B natural. I can play above this note in tune (most of the time) and well below it but the high B natural never comes out! I play on a Custom Yamaha 842 and I was wondering if anyone had faced similar issues either on this same horn or just in general. I need to fix this because a solo I am working on has two significant, climactic B naturals in the slow movement that would sound just not so climactic as a cracked note!

Thanks for the help!

I'm going to guess that you probably don't have the same problem coming down to it from above, as you do going up to it. Practice things like this: 2nd valve, start on high C# above it and come down by harmonics C#, B, A, G-, E, C#, A and back up without stopping. Do that several ways: no tongue slurred, legato tongued, hard tongue, marcato, and no tongue with breath emphasis on each note. Also soft and loud, all of those different ways. And starting even higher, and add the low E and A. But always back up to the starting note without stopping or resetting. Make it smooth and equal from one note to the next.

Use the same idea with different fingerings to work through that range from above instead of from below.

Yamahas don't like high B with 1&2. Try second valve alone. Should play better than High Bb that way.

J.c.S.

J.c. Sherman wrote:Yamahas don't like high B with 1&2. Try second valve alone. Should play better than High Bb that way.

J.c.S.

You can also try 3 or 2-4.

Joseph

Can you buzz an unbroken glissando past the problem note, preferable from below and up as well as from above and down?

Or is the problem that you play the notes above with a different embouchure approach than used for the notes below?

Notes in the border area between two different embouchure registers are always very vulnerable.

Can you lip trill smoothly between the 8th and 9th partials employing all chromatic fingerings?

And then there is a matter of getting ones proportions right. Is the the high B natural really a note within the natural range of a high school player?

Klaus

I would like to second what those before me said:

1 - Are you playing that note 2nd valve alone?
2 - Check mouthpiece compatibility. SOME horns are very mouthpiece sensitive.
3 - How's the c' above (open)?

Good luck!

The mouthpiece I'm using is the one from the case that supposedly works very well with the horn and on all other notes it does. My high open C comes out well on a typical day its just the B natural. Doug Elliott: I'll try that exercise you suggested that sounds like it would help considering it does come out better coming down from a higher notes. I have played the B with all sorts of valve combinations with limited success depending on the day. I can't lip trill so maybe I need to do some more exercises on that and strive to keep improving my range upwards. Thanks for the great comments guys!

I was also wondering if anyone on the same horn has similar issues.

I've played euphonium for a long time and have tried LOTS of instruments. Most of them (by a large margin) are funky on the B. Usually 2nd valve alone is the best choice. My Sterling Virtuoso is the first horn I have had that has a very usable high B, but I think you can probably learn to play it on most horns with practice.

Try going up to the B in a very easy-to-hear way, like with a B scale from an octave lower. Slur the scale, which probably gives you the best chance of finding the B at the top. That may be the easiest way to generate a little success. Then try arpeggios going up to the B. Find other ways of practicing around it, like doing an A scale from the octave below, but going up to the 9th (the B) and coming back down. Try some other stuff until you find the one that gives you the best odds of getting the note. Exploit that (or those) until you are a little more comfortable, then expand to other patterns.

While some horns make this easier than others, I think for most of us not being able to nail certain notes reflects the time we haven't spent trying to find the magic balance between air, embouchure, and fingerings. I plead guilty to that (and not just for the high B). Once we learn that a note is funky, we tend to avoid practicing patterns that call for it.

A new Virtuoso would solve the problem but would cost you mega bucks, so look at that fact as a great reason to work with the Yamaha and find the secret to getting comfortable with the B on the horn you already own. It CAN be done! (And won't you feel great once you get there?)

I've had the same issues with the high B. I made up a little exercise that helped give me consistency. It's about establishing habits on the mouthpiece (and getting away from the "feel" of the horn). The lips have many sensory nerves in them, but you just have to ignore how they feel and let the air fall out the horn.

For the exercise, I start by doing a glissando on the mouthpiece between high A and high B. Do it fairly slowly, about 5 repetitions per breath. Do this three or four times. Take it to the horn and see how it works.
This is a fairly slow process, but can progress quickly if you're patient enough. When I first started it, I could play the B how I wanted once, then it went back to sounding poor again. When that happens, play it on the mouthpiece again. Eventually, get up to two, three, and expand it from there. The most important point is to stop and play on the mouthpiece when the sound diminishes in quality; you're establishing a new habit and replacing old ones takes time.
By the way, what piece are you playing?

Best of luck,

Christian

Dave is a way better player than I am. Yet I disagree with his idea of calling whatever note on whichever instrument funky. In real life I have seen other teachers tell their students so about certain notes in various instruments. The result is about nervous students cracking notes. I will not disagree about certain notes calling for more attention, as they apparently have a narrower slot of good response. My approach then has being about helping students operating within these narrower slots.

The mouthpiece glissando practicing makes sure, that there are no dead spots in the player’s embouchure. That is one field to be covered before one at all starts blaming the instrument.

And Dave’s scale recommendations are congruent with mine. Scales are a basic tool, that shall not be underrated. They set up an aural framework for good intonation. There is one prominent TubeNetter whom I doubt practices scales very much now. But he has studied them intensely on another instrument (guitar), so that whatever permutation of intervals is ingrained in the reptile levels of his brain. I still have to work on things.

Based on my sometime relationship with jazz environments I have set up a scale training method, which is directed specifically towards all of the common low brass pitches and reading modes (each pitch and mode has its own method). The method alternates every day between tongued and legato playing on various range segments. Here a sample from the legato page relevant for the actual range:
This method is free like all of my music and teaching stuff offered within my Yahoo based project:

Low brass scale routines by Klaus Bjerre.
Routines for the Major mode, the Lydian mode, the Locrian mode, the Phrygian mode, the natural, melodic, and harmonic Minor modes, the Dorian mode, the Mixolydian mode, and the Lydian Dominant mode plus the 8-note Dominant scales. Each mode has pages addressed directly to Euphonium (baritone, trombones) in treble and bass clefs plus bass clef tubas in F, Eb, CC, and BBb. These routines may also be used by other treble clef brasses (especially horn), clarinets, and saxophones.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... 0routines/

Klaus

CKH wrote: By the way, what piece are you playing?

The piece is the Barbara York Euphonium Sonata "Child's Play" and the note is in the second movement. I am going to try and compile everyone's suggestions into my practice routine! I really appreciate all the suggestions and I am excited to get to some grueling work tomorrow:)

I'm way below the level of about everybody else who has responded to this, but...I can play the B natural (which I do with 2nd valve, BTW.)

With cracked notes on brass instruments, the (french) horn has the worst reputation, because its partials are so close together up high. So horn players get a lot of practice in trying to learn how to not crack notes. What I found was that if your chops are going for one pitch (presumeably the correct one) and that pitch is slotted somewhat differently (either higher or lower) than what your chops are aiming for, it cracks, especially if you are aiming at a narrow slot, such as exists in the high range. With the horn, your right hand can change the position of that partial so that it matches the pitch your chops are going for, and instinctive use of the right hand is one of the mandatory techniques for playing the horn.

That's why the fingerings matter so much on instruments where you don't have your hand in the bell: you have to find a fingering that has the pitch you're going for with your chops, near its center, to avoid a crack.

Everything I've seen everybody else write is right on target.

MA

A lot of what I'm seeing can be summed up in the imortal words of Ron Bishop:

"Fix the buzz, fix the problem."

Or, If you can't buzz it, you can't play it...

J.c.S.

I'm confused by the amount of people that play one half step below the 9th partial (B on Bb and euph, E on Eb,...) 12. I always play it 2. No need to add more valves than you need on what are hard notes anyways!

J.c. Sherman wrote:Yamahas don't like high B with 1&2. Try second valve alone. Should play better than High Bb that way.

J.c.S.

I found this to be very true when I played a 641, you had a whale of a time trying to slot the high B natural. I'd echo Bloke's advice and slap a smaller mpc in the horn and try practice, then move up to the larger mpc.

Bob Kolada wrote:I'm confused by the amount of people that play one half step below the 9th partial (B on Bb and euph, E on Eb,...) 12. I always play it 2. No need to add more valves than you need on what are hard notes anyways!

If they are playing it 12 then they are not playing it "one half step below the 9th partial". Perhaps 1 1/2 steps below the 10th?

At the bottom, the partials are far apart, and we add more valves to cover the gap.

At the top, the partials are close together. The range of notes you can play on one partial
significantly overlap the ones you can play on another partial.

If tubas/euphs worked according to the folk theory, then all of these overlapped notes would be
at the same pitch. But, they don't, so they aren't. One may be too sharp, one too flat, and another "just right".

"Hard" notes have many causes. A note that is "hard" (or stuffy, or out of tune) on one partial, may be
peachy-keen on another. It doesn't matter to your lips which valves you have pressed down, or how
long the bugle is (well...not strictly true as you approach the extremes) - it's the same pitch.

If you change the length of the bugle (valves) and change "partials" to get back to the same pitch, you move all of the nodes/anti-nodes. A note might be "bad"/"hard" because a node falls in a funky part of the bugle (dent, leak, sludge). Move the node, and the problem goes away.

Some of these competing concerns may balance out. In this case, it just might be that the disadvantages of playing that B
on a higher partial (with more valves) are overcome by the advantages of actually hearing the note "speak" (and be in tune). This is more than likely if (as our intrepid OP says) the player can easily play the notes above the problem note.

[Do you play "middle F" open, or 4, or 13? How about 234?] [that's "G" to you orchestra tubaists.]

Whose idea worked best? I'm just curious because I could use some help up there as well.

Speaking of range issues, what fingering would be best suited for the D above that? None of them seem particularly great, I'm wondering what most people do.

Christian

CKH wrote:Whose idea worked best? I'm just curious because I could use some help up there as well.

Speaking of range issues, what fingering would be best suited for the D above that? None of them seem particularly great, I'm wondering what most people do.

Christian

3 if as chord note. 12 if melodic leading note.

Klaus