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Mouthpiece Dimensions Effects

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:37 am
by MaryAnn
I've read enough about "this piece works with this tuba, but that piece ruins the X range or fuddles up the intonation" to wonder if anyone has some kind of treatise out there about the effects of mouthpiece dimensions on what comes out the bell.

For example: I have an old Eb tuba which plays, with the mouthpiece I have for it (small shank,) sharp in the high register compared to the low register. I can't get them both in tune at once, so the tuba never gets played and just sits in its bag in the closet. If I wanted to, for example, lower the high register response via a different mouthpiece, what dimensional difference would be wise to try? I know it's possible but don't know how to get there without the concepts.

I think Klaus has this kind of knowledge, and I'm sure mouthpiece makers do, but is it written down anywhere? It seems it would make a great term paper or thesis for someone with an engineering bent.

MA

Re: Mouthpiece Dimensions Effects

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:26 pm
by Donn
I think not - I mean, maybe someone knows, but if so they're keeping it to themselves. At best, there's a widespread belief that old Eb tubas need a smaller volume mouthpiece. You might be able to test that empirically with a bass trombone mouthpiece, trombone large shank size is similar though probably a little larger. Empiric evidence sometimes confirms widespread beliefs in these matters, sometimes does not.

Re: Mouthpiece Dimensions Effects

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:36 pm
by Rick Denney
MaryAnn wrote:For example: I have an old Eb tuba which plays, with the mouthpiece I have for it (small shank,) sharp in the high register compared to the low register. I can't get them both in tune at once, so the tuba never gets played and just sits in its bag in the closet. If I wanted to, for example, lower the high register response via a different mouthpiece, what dimensional difference would be wise to try? I know it's possible but don't know how to get there without the concepts.
You are ready for Benade's Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics (get the second edition) and Fletcher and Rossing's The Physics of Musical Instruments, though I'm surprised you don't already have them.

I know what you do for a living, so I won't try to define my terms below, particularly impedance.

The intonation effect of a mouthpiece is a result of combining the impedance curves for the mouthpiece, the player, and the instrument. The mouthpiece has a very broad impedance curve. The resonance curve (which is the inverse of the impedance curve) has a broad hump of resonance, centered in the vicinity of A on the bass clef. There is so much inharmonic noise in the buzz through a mouthpiece (which is why the resonance peak is broad and flat) that it does not affect intonation that much in and off itself. Benade suggests that the resonance of the space in the mouthpiece (determined by the popping pitch, which you can hear if you slap the rim opening against your palm), if high, will cause the upper register to tend high in terms of intonation with respect to the lower register. I have a feeling that's a subtle effect in the midst of less subtle effects.

Benade also suggests that mouthpieces with a large throat provide a broader resonance curve for more pitch flexibility. But the larger throat also increases the popping frequency, while greater volume decreases it. So, a smaller mouthpiece with a larger throat might have the same popping frequency as a larger mouthpiece with a smaller throat, though the former will have more pitch flexibility. The shape of the cup affects the mix of overtones. These are generalities, of course.

The resonance peaks of the instrument are pointed, and include all the harmonic overtones. The pointed peaks indicate that the instrument is far more resonant at these frequencies than is the mouthpiece. The inverse impedance curve will show humps with pointed slots at the resonance peaks. The impedance shown in those humps damp the buzz coming out of the mouthpiece at those frequencies, filtering out the inharmonic overtones in the buzz to produce a musical sound. Thus, I think the instrument has a much greater effect on the perceived pitch of the system than the mouthpiece, in general.

Then, there is the player, whose buzz may be on pitch, high, or low. The buzz may provide the frequencies necessary to produce a full range of harmonics, or it may not. A buzz that is off frequency will be damped--it will be invading one of those humps in the instrument's impedance curve--and so will its important overtones. The resulting sound will be thin. The only reason an instrument can produce a sound at all is because the resonance peaks have a little width to them, making it possible to create some sounds that are not centered on those peaks.

Some instruments have resonance peaks that are a little broader, which provides more pitch flexibility. And some instruments have that breadth without undermining important overtones, and those instruments are highly regarded because they can be steered without ruining the sound.

A buzz that is on frequency but that lacks harmonic energy will also starve the resulting sound of important overtones. The buzz must include all those upper frequencies that go into the color of the sound--if they aren't in the buzz, nothing on the instrument is going to produce them. That's why a buzz with a lot of harmonic noise energy is better than a buzz with more apparent tonal purity. That purity means that the upper harmonics are weak. It's the instrument's job to do the filtering, and the player's job to provide enough harmonic energy so that something useful is left after the filtering is done.

I suspect the best science on these topics has been done in the electrical world more than in the acoustic world. I'm thinking a feedhorn antenna might be an interesting analogue. The frequency domain is the frequency domain.

Rick "who knows a lot more about impedance than he used to" Denney

Re: Mouthpiece Dimensions Effects

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:22 pm
by pgym
Mary Ann,

Take a look at GR Technologies's Mouthpiece Tutorial. The pages on the throat and backbore are probably most directly related to your query.

Re: Mouthpiece Dimensions Effects

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:44 pm
by Bob Kolada
Donn wrote:there's a widespread belief that old Eb tubas need a smaller volume mouthpiece
I'm not sure that's actually true. I played everything from a PT48 to a small shank 30 mm thing on my old Conn Giant and my small King Eb. The only difference in intonation was in overall pitch.
The 30mm in the Giant and the 48 in the King didn't play that well, but intonation was not part of that.

What did I end up with? The King with my Bach 18 (horn has an inbetween shank) most of the time. I occasionally use the 30mm thing.
The Giant played fine with both the 18 and 48, but not with my 69C4 or LM12.

Re: Mouthpiece Dimensions Effects

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:58 pm
by imperialbari
One may like Vincent Bach’s instruments and mouthpieces or not. He still was a wise man. Some of his writing is available here:

http://www.bachbrass.com/pdf/AV6001%20B ... Manual.pdf

My own modifications of production mouthpieces are inspired by VB, but then doing things has given some experience in combining tools, eye, and hand skills. Hard to write down. When name players tell they designed 3 models in a morning session with a mouthpiece maker, then my only comment is : Hallelujah! Fine tuning of a mouthpiece takes much more time forth and back between tools and test playing.

The main problem with the old American tubas is, that they were designed for much lighter and much less noisy playing. Long parades with modern mouthpieces are deadly for all but monster players (some military tuba players are huge persons).

Using modern mouthpieces with large throats skews the intervals on the old bass tubas. One way to go for less physically endowed players may be trying bassbone mouthpieces. For a period I played my first bass (the 26K) through a Bach 1G.

Klaus

Re: Mouthpiece Dimensions Effects

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:14 pm
by Doug Elliott
The broad intonation tendency MA refers to can be looked at in terms of the difference in harmonics between a straight tube and a conical one. Greatly simplified, a straight tube has widely spaced harmonics and conical makes them closer together. So if the high range is sharp (too widely spaced) the simple solution is to make it more conical to compress the harmonic series. A smaller throat makes the entire system more conical, and will compress the harmonic series more, thereby lowering the offending sharp high range. The entire mouthpiece doesn't have to be smaller, just the throat.

Re: Mouthpiece Dimensions Effects

Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 1:12 pm
by MaryAnn
Thanks for all the responses!

MA

Re: Mouthpiece Dimensions Effects

Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 3:21 pm
by Donn
I hope you will make us aware of any empirical evidence that may come of this.