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has anyone played on one? I hear they are amazing. Any input/pics would be greatly appreciated.

There is a big thread about them on the trombone website. They're basically a copy of the Thein, with seemingly all the little funny things Thein has- short inners, funny waterkey dealie, long cork barrels,...

http://www.brassgurus.com was planning on bringing them, slicking them up, and selling them with a Cronkhite and mp for $2900. They're not the only ones planning on that. I was planning on doing that, but I ended up buying a Kanstul instead. It rocks, but the cork barrels are also really long (read- 1st position is oddly far out) and the bell placement is odd- not where it would be on an F bass nor where it would be on a Bb bass (that's not the worst idea considering most contra players play mostly bass, though it'd make more sense with the European valve tuning instead of the bass-down-a-4th valve tuning it has). My horn has a flat 6th position and is pretty sharp. So if I got the barrels cut down I could 4 new slide tubes and engage in some Bartokian shenanigans (and my bell placement would be more like my bass and tenor).
But first to get my "UPS modified" bell fixed....

Z, I own one and have played it a lot. Like Bob said, there is a lengthy thread on the trombone site here:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,50161.0.html" target="_blank

This thread ended a couple of months ago. I have since changed my stated opinion on these horns somewhat. First and foremost I have found that the valves are absolute gargage. They are very poorly made and leak a lot. I have since ordered new valves and am in the process of putting the final fit and finish on them. Once I got the new valves tacked on I blew the horn and found it to be totally different (even though the valves are the same style and bore). I am looking forward to putting this instrument into use after it is done.

I would not consider the instrument anywhere near amazing out of the box. The valves are simply trash. No matter what any shop does to a new horn, outside of replacing the valves, is going to make these horns have any real value outside of being a leaky noise maker.

Please be aware of the price. You get what you pay for in this case. It still might be overpriced.

With all the work and parts I have put into this thing I could have (almost) bought a Kanstul like Bob. I do, however, have hope that the final product will be a very nice and playable horn.

Again, beware of these things.

Bob, you look like something out of a George Romero movie in that picture !
Nice horn.

That's a shame about these horns especially considering the good reviews on the tubas. My Kanstul has a few funny things too- looong cork barrels (1st is so far out!), odd bell placement probably partially due to the barrels and the long bit of tubing between the 1st valve and the slide screw, slightly flat 2nd valve, really sharp overall,.... Oh well.

Cameron, do you have a bag for yours? I'm not thrilled with my Cronkhite. It has too much room at the skinny side and is hard to get the bell in especially with that weird short handle that keeps it from opening up all the way. I would like to find a slim case like my Getzen bass's (not the current coffin case, but the older one with 2 handles).

Hi
Update on the M&M Contra Bass Trombones, Yes Cameron, bought one of the first Contras that we had just produced with His advice we have modified and refined the Contra to make the Bass an out standing instrument
To date I have sold and delivered over 23 of the updated instruments and have received many letters of thanks
It is my mission to get on the market well made affordable instruments and so far we have done that with much input from some great Tuba and brass players
We will send Cameron, if He wants, a set of our new valves so he will end up with an $3,500.00 Contra that you could not replace for under $10.000.00
Thank you
M&M
Michael

LJV wrote: So, in exactly 12 weeks, You:

• • Sold the first contra to Cam at TUSABTEC
  • Received his feedback as he completely rebuilt his horn over the course of several(+) weeks
  • Instructed the Chinese factory to make changes to their product
  • Had them actually comply correctly
  • Had new, corrected contras built
  • Had them shipped from China
  • Had them go through customs
  • Received them at your warehouse
  • Sold and shipped them to over 23 customers
  • Received many letters of thanks.

Wow. That would be damned impressive. Hats off to you!

What LV, you read minds too? What am I thinking of now.

There seems to be a basic misunderstanding here. I suggested that the triggers on the valves be made functional. The design was OK. The workmanship was bad. The triggers are something that I, a shop monkey with a basement full of tools and rod stock, can manufacture and make myself feel like the king of the world. The problem is the valves themselves. They are Hagmann copies. Shop Monkey can't crap a tight Hagmann-like valve with a Taig hobby lathe. They leak. They have the feel of a Yugo with 200,000 miles on it after being worked on for hours AND being blessed by the Pope. There is no way that I can think of to "fix" the valves that came on the horn. The main bearing hole at the top was not true to the rotor casing for heaven's sake. One could only live with them and tell themselves that because they turn and redirect airflow at a 80.846% efficiancy that they were OK.

Last rites have been read to these dogs.

With actual, functioning Hagmann brand valves this horn is a keeper.

As I said before, BEWARE of the valves. If you have the money to drop some real valves on the horn, do it. Do not think that because this horn makes a sound out of the box (and to be honest, how many of us know what one of these horns should sound and play like anyway?.....) that it is good. In my opinion the horn is basically good except for the valves. Play a real German horn (or Kanstul) side by side. That'll be an eyeopener. My hat is off to Bob for sacking up and getting the proven flamethrower.

HI-
I look at the M&M site and specifically their contra bass bone ad, and in the description, it states:

5 year warrantee on workmanship

If the valves were not right and it was due to poor workmanship, and not dropping the horn, or some other owner problem, why did you not take advantage of the warranty? In addition, Michael of M&M has offered to replace the valves--if the casings are not not right also, than that needs to be addressed also, but M&M IS offering a warranty and it sounds like they have LISTENED and corrected a problem---now I ask you, how many German tuba/trombone (with valves) makers have poor valves (as noted here on Tubenet countless times)--even on so called hand made instruments for over $20,000+--do the Germans offer any warranty for 5 years--or 3 years-or 6 months? Have they-German makers- offered to replace any valves that are not acceptable? Have the German makers listened to problems/faults with their instruments, or do they continue to 'crank out' the same old, same old...
I agree with Cameron--poor valves are awful, esp. on new horns--but from what has been written here, there seemed to be--in this case-- a possible solution to the problem.
Just some thoughts...
Regards-
mark

The undertaking of swapping valves on these horns (casings and rotors) and using the existing tubing is a monumental undertaking. Retrofitting real Hagmann valves onto this horn is a bigger project with different port heights an all. I have my valves now. I am totally unconvinced that this Chinese company can produce a valve that operates, not just look like, an actual Hagmann product. If I took advantage of the replacement policy I have a feeling that I would be swapping out product many times over. That would really play hell with the horn.

The difference in quality between the original valves and the true Hagmann valves is measured in light years. When that little box from Switzerland made it over the pond (after being delayed by the volcano) and into my dirty little hands I think I heard angels sing. The real Hagmanns are tight and move very well. It is always a pleasure to work with parts from that part of the world.

Now it seems you are sticking up for the Chinese instruments a bit. I understand your position. Hell, I bought one. I am only letting others know what I think is a potential problem. It all boils down to the fact that, in my opinion, the Gin Bow company is NEVER going to produce a valve of THIS type that will perform very well. I can say that about NONE of their other products. Hell, come to think of it, the company that makes the horn they ripped off, Thein, also makes a more standard rotor model called a "star valve". Why on earth did they not just rip off that design? The tubing wrap is the same. At least nearly the same. The Chinese have mundo more experience producing standars rotors. Why the Hagmann? Me thinks they bit off a little more than they can chew. There is a reason Hagmann valves cost nearly as much as a Chinese contrabass trombone.

Please keep in mind that my only gripe is with the valve set. I am very happy with the handslide, the bell, the valve tubing and slides, the case, the stock mouthpiece that I do not use, the lacquer, the machine laser engraving, the remote water key, and the bumper on the tip of the slide. Those are all meat and potato issues. The valves on the other hand....

I want to have Bob come to DC with his Kanstul and have a side by side with the Chinese horn with the real valves. I think this horn will more than hold it's own. On the other hand I just want Bob to stay in flyover country and be happy with his horn and not sell it next month.

LJV wrote:Maybe Michael at MM will send you one to test drive...

Not that I even know for sure what a main bearing hole is, but when we're talking about manufacturing problems like eccentric position of said feature, that is not going to be reliably consistent, true? If I had a truckload of Chinese instruments to sell, and someone who wanted to take a test drive and publish the results, I'd fish around in the barrel and pick the best of a dozen or so. Presto, the factory got it right! (by accident)

5 year warranty is the consumer's opportunity to do the same, if so inclined.

MartyNeilan wrote:Bob, you look like something out of a George Romero movie in that picture !
Nice horn.

Night of the Cylindrical Horror?

Thanks!

You always get what you pay for. I love my Kanstul contrabass.
Bill

I have mailed M&M my money to get one of their updated contrabass trombones. so I will be posting how these fixed versions play in the valves.

Everything Cameron has said about the Jin Bao / M&M instruments F contrabass trombone is 100% fact not fiction. My twin brother received his in the mail and the first valve slips out of alignment every time to every other time you depress it and the second one isn't much better. The leadpipe had to be shaved and sanded to make it round,smooth and flush at the end and it still isn't completely centered. So, he will end up going to a place in L.A. like Hornguys did for the altos they purchase from JinBao to have a new leadpipe made that isn't so crude. There are only 2 shotty solder joints but they aren't to the point where they would break, they're just not pretty and there was excess solder on the inner slide tubing that will eventually wear off but it shows the lesser quality of the German counterpart they are imitating. M&M touts a 5 year warranty but after the $300 in shipping and the impossible task of fixing the problems without studying under Hagmann himself for a few years and having your horn prodded for little to no real change, it makes a lot more sense to just spend a $1000 + labor to have the valves swapped out for the real deal and you'll still have paid way less then the $19,000 it now costs for a Thein. I figure that my brother will end up paying $5,000 by the time he has the new valve set installed, since he likes the position of the paddles, and the he will have a perfect Thein copy which is way better than a Kanstul due to the European valve configuration and the slightly different design/bell tapers. The slide on F contras is only functional to the 4th, maybe 5th position, anyways and the pedal F# being in 3rd with both triggers down is very nice.

Oh, and they did fix the spit Valve issue by putting on a traditional style spit Valve on but they made the handle part a little too short. It is long enough to use but not quite long enough to be comfortable though it is still very functional. The Kanstul spit valve lever is the same as the new JinBao one but IS long enough. One day he might swap that out with a Kanstul spit Valve lever just to make it more comfy.

Other than a little leg work on the purchaser's part, I would recommend the Chinese Contrabass trombone to anyone as long as they are not looking for a true crate horn, i.e. plays perfect right out of the box from the manufacturer. You have to think that you are paying $3,000 less than a Kanstul and $14,000 less than a Thein. So, after you're done having the kinks worked out and done practicing on your new horn that you love, go out and spend the savings on something like a motorcycle, a new economy car or a down payment on a condo. Or, you can simply chalk it up as money still in your pocket or not wrapped up in a credit line that you would have had to exhaust on your other high end crate horn options and been paying on for years.

HI-
Did you contact Michael at M&M to discuss this? As you mentioned, they DO have a 5 year warranty and I think a 7 day return policy--if companies offer such things, and folks don't call them and/or take them up on this, then I wonder why folks complain. If you don't contact them, how do they know there is a problem?
Now if companies don't follow through on such things, that IS a big problem,and should be reported here, but I would at least begin the process and contact them to discuss the problem/situation. My 2 cents...
Regards-
mark

Well, I'll answer that in the "if I were the one asked the question" position:

There is that gol-danged shipping cost. There is someone on this board who ordered a tuba from an importer of Chinese instruments, and proceeded to pay shipping back and forth to try to get a good one. He gave up but was out quite a bit in shipping, that he could have spent on a good instrument to start with. If you are not an excellent repair person yourself, you're taking a chance on something that is produced with near-slave labor in a 3rd world country. They may eventually get it right, and apparently do already have some things right, but like the power transformers from India that the company I work for bought, the "best" example put out there for inspection may have little in common with the example you actually get. In the case of a power transformer, you end up without it for a year while it goes back and forth for warrenty work.

MA

Sorry you ran into the same problems Z. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Just write Hagmann and write a check.

With all the shipping mess aside, how does one expect to get "satisfaction"? Getting brand new one in return? Again? With quite possibly the same valve issues? OR having them swap out the valves with the same product? I vote booooooooo.

The reason I responded to the original post was to alert a potential buyer of a problem. A problem that it seems to me will continue to plague this line of horns. Anyone who reads this thread and buys one of these things should know that there will be BIG $,$$$ coming out of their pocket to get it up and running well. Z knew that and is now about to enter phase II - making it play.

Also, I want to echo Z's words and say that once these things are fixed they are fun to play and (in my opinion) are usable instruments. I'm sure an actual Thein is better in a lot of ways, but I ain't paying to find out.

To sum up:

Horn - $2900
Hagmanns - $1000
Shop cost - (depends on how pretty you would want it) about $1000-$1500. At least that is what I would charge.

$4900-$5500. Spendy, but worth it IMO.

IMO, if you're going to spend $3000 on these check out brassgurus.com. They may not be able to fix the valves, but at least they can straighten everything else out and add a Cronkhite for the same cost. He'll also sell them for somewhere near half that as-is.

Also, a new Kanstul is about $6200 with a Cronkhite (though mine is too long for the horn...) and they seem to be getting quite a following (Phil Teele, Bob Sanders, **** there's 3 guys with them right here!- http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topi ... .msg695890, shame about that movie though ). I'm starting to wonder if I'm a Bb contra guy (a nice double slide F bass and a double slide Bb would be FUN!), but I do like mine quite a bit. The only big problems I have with it are the long cork barrels (1st feels odd being so far out) and the angle of the horn from slide to bell.
I do really want to try a Haag; something about it's proportions really speaks to me.
I gotta start checking out F tuba mp's for it as I've done a lot of bass playing on a contra mp!

There are also people out there who make some pretty sweet custom contras.

Here's a funny picture. I've never seen a leadpipe as long as the one in my Kanstul!

Thein just lowered their price to 12,000. still too much for my blood. I also just realized that I can order a Thein leadpipe for $200 and it should fit perfectly. The main reason I like this horn over the Kanstul is it's configured to the European trigger design which has 4th/8th instead of 6th/5th positions. Also, my twin found that a simple re-solder job might fix the slipping valve issue so I will post if it does or doesn't fix the problem since they used cheap solder on the brass rotor-steel rod when most people use silver-solder for those type of solder points. If it does fix the issue, hopefully M&M and the other peeps buying JinBao contrabones will take note and do this re-solder BEFORE shipping them to a slightly disappointed customer since he posted on a message board somewhere, maybe here, that he had fixed the valves.

Oh, and you might want to talk with Ivan Giddings at GWmouthpieces.com about a new mouthpiece. If it is a bass bone shank like mine, he can take one of his F tuba mps and put a bass bone shank on it. I personally am having him take his Churada or maybe the new Alan Baer F solo tuba mouthpiece depending on the stats and having it put on a bass bone shank. I love his mouthpieces and they are good for you since they aren't plated.