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Posted: **Wed May 05, 2010 12:10 pm**

I am beginning to play with a good friend who plays guitar. He is not a classical player and like all rockers just loves to play in E, or G, or, if I am very lucky C. I have been playing trumpet, trombone, and tuba and doing some tracking with him and I was wondering if C brass would serve me better. I haven't ever played a C anything, but wouldn't that make for some easier fingerings? The issue has nothing to do with reading music as we are playing strictly by ear. Also, how much trouble, and how effective, are these extra slides to change the pitch from BBb to C on tuba? I had heard you could get a CB-50 that way a while back from Getzen.

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2010 1:24 pm**

I started brass on trumpet in elementary school band. I also had a few years of piano lessons as a boy, and came to low brass as a freshman in high school volunteering to play souzy for marching band.

When reading printed sheet music, I think the usual BBb fingerings. When playing treble clef lead sheets or open charts, I still tend to think "C-open," or "C-home," even after all these years. So I do use a CC instrument when possible on these kinds of gigs.

As far as using a CC tuba 5th valve as a BBb/CC "switch" valve, remember that in adding a significant length of cylindrical, as opposed to conical, tubing, the upper partials will start to vary from nominal pitch and cause intonation problems.

OTOH, what Elephant said: have the guitar player change instead, even if it means using a capo up 1 fret, so E becomes F, G becomes Ab, etc.

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2010 2:24 pm**

I guess I don't really want to have an adjustable tuba, I am now aware that would be a bad thing. I am more interested to know, from those who play more improvisationally, if the C will fit into the guitar thing better than BBb does. As for learning my keys, I do actually know them all quite well when reading, but improv is different and the fingerings do limit what can be done during a solo. No matter how much I practice, E will never be as good a key as, say, Eb, for a BBb or Bb instrument, just because of the fingerings. Thanks for the advice of 'practice more' (never a bad thing) but what I really want is the feedback of someone who plays jazz or blues improvisationally, on a C inbstrument. I have been playing solos in concert E on a trumpet since the 70's. Just sick of this key, mostly. That and non-musically literate, non-capo using, blues guitar players. I think guitarists view capo with some disdain.
Steve

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2010 6:01 pm**

Steve, I hate to be the broken record. I just really think that the purchase of a CC should be because you are making the move to a higher quality instrument or to facilitate tuning. Although, it can be argued that many collegiate tubists (not your situation) make the switch because of tradition.

Either way, it is your call. If you think it will help THAT much, then you should switch. It may be, in fact, easier, but I am not entirely sure that your answers are in switching to a CC tuba.

Look at what major key fingerings you are trading:

-C scale does becomes easier because it is the open scale of the horn.

-G scale is probably a draw because it plays like F on a BBb horn, but G wasn't hard to begin with on BBb.

-D scale becomes harder, because you are playing the C scale that you would play on BBb; D scale on a BBb is insanely easy (any scale that only has to use 2 fingers is easier than one that requires the use of 3-4).

-A scale may be a little easier on CC because it is the G scale on BBb.

-E scale is easier because it is the D on BBb.

So 3 common jazz/rock keys become easier, 1 becomes harder, 1 is pretty much a draw. Jazz/Rock minor/blues keys are going to be hard across the board, because they are "thought" keys until you are extremely proficient. Is that worth thousands of dollars in a new horn or trying to trade into a CC? I don't think so. Maybe you do.

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2010 7:08 pm**

I guess you're all right. I think I will add a CC tuba and a C trumpet one day anyway just because I love having instruments around. I already have a Mira 186 BBb, King 2341(old style), Model 37 silver Bach trumpet, Olds Ambassador cornet (my first instrument), a keyboard, piano, Meinl 551 euph and an old Olds Ambassador bell front baritone for tubachristmas. Thanks for the advice and for steering me clear of my wrongheadedness in these matters. I have the BBC down the road so I never get into anything technical - just let them fix it if it doesn't work. Nice to know a little more about how they all function.

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2010 7:15 pm**

I am very much with the elephant. There are some motor patterns for the fingers, which take a bit more attention. But these are on all pitches of tubas, only in different scales. The first brass players entering music genres like blues and jazz didn’t ask for instruments in specific keys. They took what was available, usually surplus military instruments in Bb and Eb.

My own practicing of scales used to be after Arban’s cornet method, but it is not equally dedicated to all keys, as French cornets of the Arban era could be tuned in C, B natural, Bb, and A by means of a long and a short tuning slide extender. Since then I started practicing scales out my head after a pattern learned from jazzers, who usually are very strong in scales. As not everybody has had the chance to be schooled in the theory behind diatonic scales, and much less behind synthetic scales, I have written a scale method, which works by musical parameters in the main range of most players, that is: along the circle of fifths. In the lower range the method descends in chromatic increments. In the high range is ascends in chromatic increments. This allows the player to move systematically within his/hers range and at the same time push the range in both directions. As the method is based in the core range of any given pitch, there are versions for all permutations of pitches and clefs found in low brasses, slided or valved. There are versions in more modes than most players ever will be confronted with. I encourage learning the scales by ear/heart, but I have no objections if players want to keep the music in front of themselves.

A sample from the high range for euphonium:

The method may be downloaded for free from my Yahoo-based project. The index is here:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Yo ... 0%20Index/

Klaus

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2010 9:37 pm**

vintage7512 wrote: Thanks for the advice of 'practice more' (never a bad thing) but what I really want is the feedback of someone who plays jazz or blues improvisationally, on a C inbstrument. I have been playing solos in concert E on a trumpet since the 70's. Just sick of this key, mostly. That and non-musically literate, non-capo using, blues guitar players. I think guitarists view capo with some disdain.
Steve

Steve,

You're calling out to me here and I'll chime in. I play jazz and rock on euphonium (a fantastic instrument for those generas, by the way) and there is 0 chance I'll ever play that stuff on a C horn. I've just forced myself to practice, practice, practice in E7, A, G7, and D mixolydian. My bandmates meet me halfway through capos, key of C and F, etc and we make it work. I'd strongly advise you to learn, w/out thinking about it, your minor pentatonic scales and your minor arpeggios. That is really helpful to adjust and maybe start on these as an entre' into improvisation with non friendly keys. Another cheap trick if you are in E or G is to just avoid pushing down first valve by itself (throw stuff out in 1 and 2, 2, and 2 and 3). I found that helps a little. I've become much more comfortable with 2 and 3 combinations now. If you're playing bop, use chromatic runs and side slip wiggle if you accidentally push down 1 or open when your in G! That's the great and freeing thing about rock and jazz, it's ok to mess up. It's not ok to play a steaming mess, though.

This very problem began to plague Miles and in response to these crazy charts he was having to deal with, he moved into modal playing. 'So What' is so wonderful to play because there aren't damn key changes every measure to have to deal with. If you play jazz, see if you can get your mates educated on modal playing and try to go there.

Listen to 'Red Clay' by Freddie Hubbard sometime, it is in D minor and B7 (a bitch to finger) and he makes it work on a Bb trumpet.
Woodsheddin!

Ryan

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2010 12:16 am**

I have a lot to digest. And a lot to practice. I was thinking of taking all my etude books and copying all the etudes together by key and kill myself working on E. First. The others will come later. Then I should start playing every related key to E and every mode with an E in it.In a decade I will be 'the elephant.' Thanks especially to elimia for the on-point stuff. If practice is the only (and maybe best) answer then that is what must happen. My poor, overworked, 186 will just have to bear up, because I will be playing E til the cows come home. Oh, and I envy you, bloke, the exposure and experience that makes the key of the instrument irrelevant. That must be a comfort.

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2010 7:53 am**

I hear something in my head ALL the time and I will find myself improvising a lot(still in the head), but I have never thought to use fingerings as I 'listened.' I also gave up tuba for 20 years and only played by ear on trumpet. As it happens, what I can play on trumpet I can also play on the tuba, but melody and counter melody (improvisation) is not what is called for on a bass instrument - at least not all the time. I don't hear proper tuba parts in my head yet, just soloistic kinds of melodies. I still haven't developed a sense for improvising bass lines. I'd like to learn how to play dixieland on tuba, or be able to do things like Leon Redbone accompaniment without having to write out a part and learn it first. Practice is the key, I am sure, but I also have played alongside some geniuses to whom this was like breathing. I can only keep working at it - got out all my etude books yesterday and plowed through everything I could find in E, G, D, C- the elephant is right in this respect - the keys should all be as easy as Eb. That's the dream, but I need to think about bass lines differently than I do now.

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2010 8:07 am**

There is B natural tuba out there in a project box. Trace it.

Klaus

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2010 8:13 am**

THAT IS the REAL problem!! B nat!! The rest is just fluff!!

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2010 11:44 am**

Think of it this way: trumpet and flugelhorn players do not move to a C horn because they want to improvise, they just transpose. The keys you mentioned are not at all bad for them. They, however have to transpose EVERY tune, and start from there.
They move to C horns if they prefer the sound. I propose you do the same.

You, at least, can read what's written in bass clef, regardless of key. And while you learn, these are NOT bad keys on a Bb horn.

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2010 3:20 pm**

vintage7512 wrote:non-musically literate, non-capo using, blues guitar players. I think guitarists view capo with some disdain.

Interesting observation. At the risk of getting off topic (but with the intention of bringing it back), I am not sure I would agree with this at all.

While I don't claim to be the world's greatest guitar player (although I do have "world class tone"

) I can play in all keys, with a plethora of chord shapes under my fingers. When I use a capo, it is not because I can't play the chord in a given key, but because I desire the voicing of the open chord shape. Sometimes that is the sound you want. Used in this way the capo is not a crutch for the musically non-literate but a tool that makes available an aesthetic choice to the "listening" musician.

Now to bring it back to topic. Your criticism of the capo seems ironic to me given what (I think) you are attempting to do by switching horns. Correct me if I am wrong but it appears your criticism of non-musically literate use of the capo is that the capo allows the guitarist to play familiar shapes and patterns based on those in easier keys to avoid learning or becoming more comfortable in the more difficult keys. Nothing wrong with this, per se, but isn't this exactly what you are attempting by switching to a differently pitched tuba? If I understand you correctly you are trying to make playing in given keys easier by allowing yourself to play familiar finger patterns based on those keys considered easier on another horn.

Now please understand, this is not a criticism of your method here. It is one completely valid method of approaching the issue. I just thought your criticism of guitarists' use of the capo to be a little off the mark given (as I said) it is apparently the same thing you are going for here.

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2010 3:32 pm**

steve wrote:Just sick of this key, mostly. That and non-musically literate, non-capo using, blues guitar players. I think guitarists view capo with some disdain.

kegmcnabb wrote: Your criticism of the capo seems ironic to me given what (I think) you are attempting to do by switching horns. Correct me if I am wrong but it appears your criticism of non-musically literate use of the capo is that the capo allows the guitarist to play familiar shapes and patterns based on those in easier keys to avoid learning or becoming more comfortable in the more difficult keys. Nothing wrong with this, per se, but isn't this exactly what you are attempting by switching to a differently pitched tuba? If I understand you correctly you are trying to make playing in given keys easier by allowing yourself to play familiar finger patterns based on those keys considered easier on another horn.

Now please understand, this is not a criticism of your method here. It is one completely valid method of approaching the issue. I just thought your criticism of guitarists' use of the capo to be a little off the mark given (as I said) it is apparently the same thing you are going for here.

KEG,

I'm sorry but I think you either misread his post or read too fast. He wasn't being critical of the capo at all. He's being critical of the guitar players and the guitar players NOT wanting to use capo, if anything. Your comments seem very inappropriate when actually put in context to what he said.

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2010 3:39 pm**

bloke wrote:Maybe it's a neurosis, but driving in the car (or watching TV, etc.) I find myself "picking out" tunes (melodies...or "jazz" solos) with my fingers in remote keys and/or remote octaves ("air tuba"). Likely due to this nervous habit, I just need "some sort of tuba" to play a gig. I don't care if the song is pitched in the key of (referring to fingerings) 2-4, the key of 2-3, or the "home" key of whatever tuba I'm using. If I KNOW the song (or can learn it during the first time through the changes), I can play it.

I do this - and have done this for DECADES. There is seldom an occasion when my hand isn't playing *something* - even just random scales.

I do not recommend doing it while holding your wife/girlfriend's hand, however. It tends to confuse 'em.

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2010 3:43 pm**

tubbba wrote:I do not recommend doing it while holding your wife/girlfriend's hand, however. It tends to confuse 'em.

I've certainly gotten "are you playing tuba on my hand?" I just switch hands then.

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2010 5:28 pm**

the elephant wrote:Good luck! I am out of this one!

the elephant wrote:I am not getting on you, sir. I am only passing on truth to you.

Think about this: About 30% of the Broadway show Annie is in B natural concert, and another 30% or so is in Gb and Db. It was a bear for me to learn that show when I did in my life, because at that time I had successfully dodged the key of B for many years. I had to sit down and play the B scale over and over, and struggle through broken scales in thirds, fourths and fifths - by ear - until I was comfortable in the key. I never bothered with etudes. I just tried to become comfortable within that fingering pattern. Then reading the parts was a breeze. The work ethic is more important than the equipment in such a case.

We play our instruments using skills. Skills ONLY develop through repeated practice. A skill is a physical action requiring repetition to master. It is not something you just do. If MS and HS band directors would teach all 12 keys through daily ensemble drills and then played music in all 12 keys there would be no "hard keys," just ones that individuals failed to get comfortable with. But we do not teach this way, so our students get the incorrect idea that some keys are "hard" because their teacher failed to teach the student those keys.

These keys are not "hard" at all. They are unfamiliar to the student - and probably the band director as well because they were not forced to learn them properly in college.

If you are only used to playing in Eb, Bb and F, the keys of C and G are quite "difficult" because you are unfamiliar with them. Remember the days where you learned to play in "one sharp" or in a key with B naturals in it? Come on, now. B and F# are exactly the same - unfamiliar. Stop practicing what you know so much of the time and learn to fill in the gaps in your musical vocabulary.

And I am by no means someone who's playing you should emulate. I am okay, by my way of thinking, and my improve skills are only passable - I can make it through a gig without embarrassing myself. But I never balk on a solo because of the key of the tune. I am well familiarized with all keys as an orchestral player. So I just see improv as a problem to be solved within a discrete set of fingerings. When you are equally proficient in all 12 key centers then you will see what I'm talking about. Your only limitation ought to be your imagination and not fingerings. If you switch to a CC without learning these fingering patterns, the same fingering patterns that eluded you on BBb will be a problem on CC.

Then what will you do? Purchase a tuba in D?

A jazz combo will play in many keys, frequently the "hard" ones for instruments pitched in C and in Bb.

The fingering patterns for E and B on a BBb tuba are exactly the same patterns for Gb and Db on a CC tuba. If you spend thousands of bucks on a CC tuba you will then be unable to play well in those keys unless you learn to be comfortable in those patterns at some point. Remember that you are not learning keys but patterns. Why not learn all the patterns so that you are "literate" in whatever keys cross your path?

Being able to improv in all keys will make you far more valuable than someone who is great in some keys but cannot function in others. A horn-centric funk band will favor tunes in certain keys, while a guitar-driven band will favor others. Wouldn't it be great if you could sit in with any type of band and not have to worry about being able to hang because of such a limitation? Many vocalists change the traditional keys of tunes to fit within their range. Being able to accommodate these "front" people will get you into more groups.

Again: There are no shortcuts in music.

And again: Good luck!

Wade Rackley

Just tough to keep an elephant down, I guess.

(Like what you said, though.)

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2010 5:54 pm**

I agree very much with Wade in his approach on catching up on B natural major after neglecting that key. However I disagree on this being a matter of fingering patterns only.

Those strong in the acoustic theory behind the diatonic scale system are able to tell by how many cents the major and minor seconds deviate from each other, respectively, within a scale played in just intonation (or whatever name the fully in tune scales have).

No brass instrument is borne fully in tune, but the tuning generally is perceived being better in keys close to the key of the instrument. In more remote keys (relatively) it becomes harder to get fourths and fifths in tune, which everybody can hear. The thirds also get skewed, but they are harder to determine unless they are way sharp (goes at least for major thirds).

On trombone I didn’t get full pitch control until I could play scales in tune all the way round the circle of fifths. That takes the ability to adjust on the fly, but it also develops that ability. If I shall play in remote keys, I tend to avoid instruments with only 3 valves without access to slide adjustments. I play scales around the circle on my Conn 26K also, but I am aware, where my control options are limited.

Point is: B natural major may be rare in many musical contexts, but one has to master it like any other key, because some of these other keys will suffer, if one misses out on some of the pitch controls necessary to play B natural major.

A whole lot of us have played a march like Colonel Bogey by Alford. Which is the relation between the key of the trio of that march and the key of B natural major?

Klaus

Posted: **Thu May 06, 2010 10:29 pm**

Most simple answer?

Make the band play with a capo.

Posted: **Fri May 07, 2010 8:07 am**

djwesp wrote:
steve wrote:Just sick of this key, mostly. That and non-musically literate, non-capo using, blues guitar players. I think guitarists view capo with some disdain.

kegmcnabb wrote: ...(I think)...Correct me if I am wrong but it appears...Nothing wrong with this...please understand, this is not a criticism...
KEG,

I'm sorry but I think you either misread his post or read too fast. He wasn't being critical of the capo at all. He's being critical of the guitar players and the guitar players NOT wanting to use capo, if anything. Your comments seem very inappropriate when actually put in context to what he said.

Sorry djwesp and vintage7512,

I did indeed misread or misunderstand the quoted post. However, I think your suggestion that my comments seem very inappropriate seems a little strong. Re-read my post and you will see all the qualifiers I put in. I have edited them above. Knowing full well I wasn't sure of the OP's meaning I qualified my statements with "it seems", "I think", and "correct me if I am wrong". I further made sure to state that my observation was never intended as a criticism.

In short, I misunderstood and I apologize for my misreading. I don't think I need to apologize for being inappropriate, BUT correct me if I am wrong.

TubeNet

Playing pop, rock and blues with a C instrument

Playing pop, rock and blues with a C instrument

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Re: Playing pop, rock and blues with a C instrument

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Re: Playing pop, rock and blues with a C instrument

Re: Playing pop, rock and blues with a C instrument

Re: Playing pop, rock and blues with a C instrument

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Re: Playing pop, rock and blues with a C instrument

Re: Playing pop, rock and blues with a C instrument

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Re: Playing pop, rock and blues with a C instrument

Re: Playing pop, rock and blues with a C instrument