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Hey,
I'm playing 1812 this weekend and I was looking at the part and it calls for Basstuba. So, is this an edition thing that was added after or was this Tchaikovskys intended instrument?

The CC tuba would have been around (Cerveny 1860 I believe) but was it avalable in Russia in 1880 when this was composed?

The part tends to lays in that midregister for tuba, but would be right in the easy register on f. For example from reh B to reh C, I have heard many fantastic pro blip at least one note there on CC tuba.

For the record, I'll be playing it on CC, but I was wondering if anyone knew the history behind that marking.

Bill

Get Ian to build you a subcontrabass sousaphone in FFF.

Hi! Playing the 1812 was the first time I ever got paid for playing the Tuba! I was a student at Central Washington University in the early '80's, and had ZERO orch. experience! Nadia Sonnenberg was the guest Violinist for the Tchiakovsky program I performed by the Yakima(Wa.)Symphony on that occasion! I remembered having most of the Tuba part, in addition to the Double Bass part, in a wind ensemble transcription I had performed several times of the 1812! I blew the Yakima gig on one of Central's Yamaha 641's! I still have issues with 641's, and don't whole heartedly recommend "em, but they are a decent sounding BBb, and the one I played served me quite well! Also, I was drafted into the String Bass section(it's been my double for years) by my Local regional 0rchestra, and a good friend of mine blew the 1812 on his 202 St.Pete. It sounded GREAT! I currently play a wonderful Cerveney 5-valve CC Tuba, and use it for Wind Bands all the time! Frankly, I'm tired of all the arrogant B.S. CCvsBBb talk! One of the finest Tubists I ever heard was Dr.John Richards formerly Principal of the Oregon Symphony, and He blew BBb's! Al.

I'm set on playing CC, but I guess I'm wondering why he would have wrote basstuba on the part on not contrabass tuba or just tuba.
Bill

I usually don't chime in on posts but thought I would shed a little light on this. While the main instrument in use in Russia is currently BBb, the instruments that Tchaikovsky was familiar with were exclusively the 3 or 4 valve Eb tubas in use in the military bands of the day. Many of his orchestral works have the tuba going down in the low register with the basses until low 'A' and then jumping up the octave. Later on, he wrote some lower notes but not much. For sure, he would have written for BBb or CC tubas and their capabilities had he been exposed to them.

My two cents...
Chris Olka
Seattle Symphony
Seattle Opera

Does "basstuba" in this case actually mean contrabass? As in, not just a tuba but a BASStuba!!

....also, the marked instruments on the part are rarely an accurate indication of what the composer wanted. Most times they are a product of the publisher of the particular edition...
Chris Olka

Make it sound good, like I know you do, and no one will care what fingers you press down.

To answer your original question: In Russia, a tuba is a tuba, a car is a car, a bicycle is a bicycle. Everything was made to be exactly the same. There was only one kind of anything so choice did not exist.

Played in Russia for a Russian Military Music Festival. All the tuba players were playing St.Petersburg or Leningrad tubas. (Leningrad was the name of the city St.Petersburg from 1924-1991; amazingly enough the St.Petersburg tubas that were made before 1991 are labled Leningrad)

If you really want to be authentic, try eating Russian military food for a week. (Cabbage and fish soup)

LJV wrote:

the elephant wrote:You need to produce a large, big tone with some clarity...

I disagree.

I think you need to produce a big, large tone with some clearness...


Noting that this seems to be in keeping with the majority of posts seen here lately on TubeNut. And, that I do agree with the Pachyderm.

Gentlemen, with all do respect, what is required here is a clear , large tone, with some bigness !! in keeping consistent !!! Definately go with the big horn on this piece .

Chris Olka wrote:....also, the marked instruments on the part are rarely an accurate indication of what the composer wanted.

Except of course when they are.

("Rarely"? Less than 50% of the time? Less than 20% of the time? Rarely literally = "not often")

Our band played this in concert Sunday. Granted the band version is not identical with the orchestral original, but I (on an Eb) had no trouble with it and though my compatriots (on BBb) had to practice some on the higher notes, they did well in the concert.

If you do this outside, be sure to toss some earplugs in the bag. Our Music Director was fond of using some Civil War reenactors using real cannons.

Too bad he didn't feel the same way about the carillon part.

The scoring of the opening may suggest that the intended premiere orchestra had only 4 cellos (look at the first desk violas being used as fillers in their lowest range).

The trumpets and trombones would have been of a smaller bore than common today. The Eb tuba, also smaller than some Eb tubas of today, would match that original set-up.

In my view the most important factor today would be a good match with the bass trombone.

Klaus

I'm sure the time has passed for a timely response, but I agree w/ Olka on this. Take, for example, the part for Fountains. It's listed as "Basso Tuba". You wanna play F or Eb on that? Compare w/ Bruckner 7 written for "Kontra-Basstuba", which, if I'm not mistaken, goes higher AND lower than 1812.

Interestingly enough, Bruckner 4 is for "Bass Tuba". As is Heldenleben.

Mahler 6 is for "Bass Tuba" while Mahler 5 is for "Kontrabass".

More than likely, these are publishers markings. Besides, we live in modern times, so use whatever works best for you. (Y'know, the clear horn with the largest hugeness sound.) I mean, unless you're playing 1812 w/ Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique or some new Hogwood or Pickett band, I doubt it really matters much.

I would totally agree that you should use whatever you sound best on and what fits the ensemble, but I was curious about the marking more than anything else.
Bill

Best 1812 I ever saw (in person) was a University of Californa Berkeley marching band show in the late 1970s (as I recall.) The ROTC was in charge of the cannons but there was a wired switch on the conductor's platform to trigger the blasts.
When the first button was pushed all of the connons went off at the same time - blowing out the bass drum and ending the performance instantly. I cannot find any record of this in the Cal Band history, but it did happen.

David Richoux wrote:Best 1812 I ever saw (in person) was a University of Californa Berkeley marching band show in the late 1970s (as I recall.) The ROTC was in charge of the cannons but there was a wired switch on the conductor's platform to trigger the blasts.
When the first button was pushed all of the connons went off at the same time - blowing out the bass drum and ending the performance instantly. I cannot find any record of this in the Cal Band history, but it did happen.

Wouldn’t old Joseph have loved this effect for #94?

Klaus

First, historically speaking, Chris is right on the money.

That said, Russian music has a scoring which I think has always had the greatest clarity and beauty when recorded my English groups, often with Eb. But that sort of tonal sensibility is exactly what this calls for... (or to paraphrase, clarity, with some bigness).



In all seriousness, Russia was not all that uniform in its complement of brasses available. Use what makes the sound in your head, but remember there's a bass trombone there too and s/he's important too. Join them, don't ostracize them.

J.c.S. (who would use a 4/4 CC in this neck of the woods...)