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TXTubaTeacher wrote:Hi Folks,
Does anyone have any suggestions on helping young players understand how to keep their jaw in place when articulating? I've usually had a lot of success with having them articulate off the horn, just blowing an air stream and placing a finger on their chin. However, I have one student that just can't seem to get the hang of it. He's almost chewing every note. He's only in 6th grade so this problem hasn't really hit him too bad yet, but I fear that when he plays music with faster articulations he'll be doomed. I know there are some excellent music educators that frequent this site... I was just wondering if you might have suggestions for me. I'm always interested to get a different pedagogical approach. Thanks!

1. Is the student tonguing to the lips or tonguing to the back of the teeth? How to check? Some players have actually managed to make a sound and articulate by pushing the tongue to the inside lip aperture. This is called a "aperture tunnel articulation". When playing they will make a chewing motion. There are several ways to spot this. Do the muscles under the jaw (above the adams apple) become slender and tighten close to the lower jaw bone? This is a possible indication of the lip tonguing. Another easy indication is low buzzing with an embouchure visualizer. You will be able to see the tongue in front of the aperture when the student buzzes in the low range on it.

2. Does the student have a speech impediment or lack the ability to move the tongue to the roof of his mouth/side to side/etc? It is not uncommon, as similar to webbed feet, to have skin/tissue that makes the tongue more attached and very difficult to articulate. Many times this can be noticed in slurred speech as well, but is a medical issue. "Tee" sounds will come across as "See" and require a lot of muscle work to even sound like a "Tee". Have them move their tongue all around in their mouths to prove they have the facilitation to actually articulate! Otherwise all the effort in the world would be a lost cause.

3. Can the student double tongue or make the articulation clearer with a "k" sound? Although we view double tonguing as an advanced/intermediate technique, it can be utilized to clear articulations. It grossly exaggerates tongue movement and also makes you move the tongue back farther into the mouth to help the "k" speak. This could alleviate the jaw movement "mashed potatoes" motion by requiring the tongue to be in a pivoted position instead of a jutted position. Maybe just saying double tongue articulations, doing them on the mouthpiece, and focusing on the feeling of the "t" in the double tongue articulation would lead to a migration of that same technique in their single tonguing.

4. Are they actually articulating at all? Throat articulations are common among beginners as well. It comes as a result of not putting the effort forth to LEARN "t" articulations. They huff the notes and make a jaw motion similar to "pwaah", which would lead to an exaggerated jaw motion as well. Even fixing things on the mouthpiece and speaking the articulations would not address this issue if they do not do the EXACT same things (even if awkward at first) in the horn.


If it does not get better with work and examination, the next step would be getting their tongue "typed" using the Reinhardt Method. Once the student is typed you can use the appropriate Reinhardt exercises/evaluations to address the issue on a more appropriate level.

Because we can not see the student or the situation specifically and because she has not been typed it is very difficult to address finite articulation issues.

Say "tah" or "toh." I try to keep it simple, and not get into all the mouth, teeth, jaw, tongue stuff. Articulating using one of those syllables puts almost everything in the right place without having to think too hard about it.

I am having success with my Daughter(13-y/o) by asking her to sound first without a mouthpiece, then w/mouthpiece sans horn, and then putting it all together as described in another reply! Also, I started her on double and triple articulation as soon as she could maintain a nice round whole note. I use duck-aduck-aduck, duh-guh-duh duck, and tuh-tuh- ka -tuck. For more advanced sudents, I am consulting a 'bone playing friend on teaching doodle tonguing too! Be sure to watch the corners as the student plays,especially that they don't give out on large interval slurs. I have Gladys thinking ah-ee-ah for Bb-D-Bb, (up,down) and ah for the downward slurs. I try to get her to stay as firm as possible, but some movement has to happen, as the shape/position of the tongue becomes more pronounced the bigger the axe gets! I mean that a Tubist is gonna "move" a lot more than a Trumpeter, for example! I left College to pursue a career in construction and support a family, but was taking 400 level lessons at that time(1984). I would love to hear ANY input relevant to pedagogy relevant to Brass playing! Thanks, Al.

MartyNeilan wrote:Say "tah" or "toh." I try to keep it simple, and not get into all the mouth, teeth, jaw, tongue stuff. Articulating using one of those syllables puts almost everything in the right place without having to think too hard about it.

Ditto.

Especially with the age involved as the poster cited.

For me, and with a few decades of teaching to support this notion, it still seems best (to me, and in my approach) to simply avoid getting into anything so complicated as (even remotely) suggesting young players be consciously aware how (i.e., "think about") to keep their jaw in place when articulating.

With all due respect, in reading

TXTubaTeacher wrote: "He's only in 6th grade so this problem hasn't really hit him too bad yet.."

leave Reinhardt et al in your own cranium. You're not there yet; give the student time and then revisit in several months before considering any "drastic intervention."

An opinion, fwiw.

JB wrote: With all due respect, in reading

TXTubaTeacher wrote: "He's only in 6th grade so this problem hasn't really hit him too bad yet.."

leave Reinhardt et al in your own cranium. You're not there yet; give the student time and then revisit in several months before considering any "drastic intervention."

Indeed, I never meant by typing them that they should discuss that facet at all.

But if you know WHAT type tongue they are it becomes a lot easier to diagnose and fix problems.

djwesp wrote:But if you know WHAT type tongue they are it becomes a lot easier to diagnose and fix problems.

I am one of the biggest proponents of Reinhardt's ideas, having studied with him for over 10 years... but I would be very unlikely to even consider "tongue typing" for that particular situation.

What has always worked well for me is to have the student watch in a mirror and simply "make it look like you're just holding one long note" while tonguing.

Also, double and triple tonguing, even for a young student like that, can be very useful to calm down the excess motion of single tonguing. It's not too early to start multiple tonguing.

i am a big fan of using air attacks to develop articulation. when the student is forced to produce the buzz with NO tongue, they realize that air support is the foundation of articulation, not the tongue. i like to have them try to produce extremely short and extremely loud, even blatty, notes using just air. then they don't have time to think about what they should be doing with their tongue.
once the student is producing an efficient buzz with air attacks you can work on re-introducing the tongue - as a complement to the air air attack rather than an alternative.

Hello again! What a useful bunch of information we're sharing! I am sticking to my guns vis-a-vis double and triple tonguing, as I believe it's only as hard as we get our students to believe! And it does seem to help with steadying an embrochure,too! I'm trying to get my kid to learn some finess with her articulation so she'll be using the appropriate degree of attack called for! If she just absorbs this matter of factly, she'll have an easier time getting things right without a lot of prompting in rehearsal! Thank you,Al.

I haven't dealt with this particular problem but I think the approach I use would work.

You have to get him to tongue ONE note correctly, not seven million of them. Were it my student, I'd have him go home with an assignment to get in front of a mirror and do a progression: no instrument, no mouthpiece, say Tah without moving his jaw. This could take him an entire week if he has a bad problem. Yes, you need to make sure that he can say Tah correctly, that his tongue is in the right place. If he can, pay no more attention to it as you'll just get his mind in the way.

Second, move to the mouthpiece and the same thing: ONE tongued note, maybe not even buzzing. Maybe the second week, he is assigned to come back and be able to do this.

And from there...buzzing and ONE tongued note.

Then with the instrument. If he can do one, then he can follow it with another one, with preparation.

These things can take time, and part of your job as teacher is to encourage them to have the patience to work it out themselves, and not be in a hurry to "already be good," which is the bane of learning anything complex.

MA

HI! I agree with getting the student to practice on their own! I think I might try paying for some lessons for my Daughter! She's at the stage of playing everything she knows over and over, and fighting me on the long tones and scales! I'm hoping she'll see that I'm not being boring or forcing her to learn "useless" stuff if she hears it from another adult! I am trying to teach her that playing an instrument is like learning a sport, or new skill of any kind. It's not all fun, but you have more fun and satisfaction when you put in the hard work! Al.