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I recently shipped a tuba via UPS per the ebay buyer's request. The horn was packaged by and shipped from a UPS location and was insured. The horn arrived today with the bell completely crushed. Just a few questions for anyone who has been down this road. I have already provided documentation and before and after photos to UPS and the packaging is being preserved.

1. Does UPS simply pay the insured value price to the seller? If so, what happens to the horn?
2. How long does UPS typically take to resolve these situations.
3. If the auction contained a disclaimer that seller was not responsible for shipping or damage resulting from shipping, should I do anything? (as a human being, this is non option for me)
4. Do they pay for repairs?

Any thoughts or opinions.

The sad part was that this 90 year old horn had survived all those years in great condition, and UPS managed to destroy it in 3 days.

Liberty Mo wrote: 1. Does UPS simply pay the insured value price to the seller? If so, what happens to the horn?
2. How long does UPS typically take to resolve these situations.
3. If the auction contained a disclaimer that seller was not responsible for shipping or damage resulting from shipping, should I do anything? (as a human being, this is non option for me)
4. Do they pay for repairs?

1. They will do anything in their power to not give you a penny. They will want the box it was shipped in, for sure, maybe the horn, if you do get an actual claim thru.

2. A very long time. If the horn and money mean A LOT to you, you should probably look into some legal advice. Find a legal counsel that does not require a retainer for the first few consultations. You will most likely need him.

3. Contract law is extremely complex and monotonous. Although a disclaimer may have been given, the extent of the worth of that disclaimer could vary greatly.

4. Probably not. I have had two horns damaged by them (per the buyers request, like you) and have yet to see a single penny. I also know several others in the same boat as myself. The insurance for greyhound and UPS deliveries is worth about as much as a penny slug.


Good luck, man. Keep us updated! I'll be excited to see how this pans out, maybe you'll end up luckier than myself/the people I know.

djwesp wrote:4. Probably not. I have had two horns damaged by them (per the buyers request, like you) and have yet to see a single penny. I also know several others in the same boat as myself. The insurance for greyhound and UPS deliveries is worth about as much as a penny slug.

I don't know, I managed to get $100 out of Greyhound for a slightly wrinkled helicon bell. That was about what it cost to fix it. But if the horn had been a total loss I doubt I'd been very happy with their settlement.

Liberty Mo wrote:
Any thoughts or opinions.

The sad part was that this 90 year old horn had survived all those years in great condition, and UPS managed to destroy it in 3 days.

A**holes. Incompetent a**holes.

You'd be justified in doing the same to a large brown truck with the letters UPS on the side of it.

If you had the UPS store pack it they don't have leg to stand on if they claim the packaging was insufficient. You may have an investigator contact you and you'll have to provide documentation that proves what you insured it for is what it really is worth. A print-out of the ebay auction should do the trick. In my experience it takes a month or so before you'll see a check.

nm...re-read the original post and realized I misunderstood and thought you were the recipient.

Good luck with your claim!

They will also ask for a written repair estimate from a legitimate instrument repair shop. Their investigator will want to see the tuba and the packaging. If you jump through all their hoops patiently they will pay something.

What a shame to have the old Martin meet such a fate.

Bad news - at a sale price of $606 they wont pay much.

Good news - a GOOD tech should be able to restore it to pretty near "at time of sale" condition hopefully at a price within what the insurance should pay.

Good luck!

UPS calls it an insurance program, but they really are paying for their own negligence.

--UPS creased the bell on my tuba. I was the buyer, and UPS paid me the full price plus shipping. I got to keep the tuba. They creased the bell very obviously on a $600 USD, 1917 horn I had bought on *bay. I complained greatly to the inspector who came to my home. I got a check even before I sent in my repair estimate and photos.

The creased tuba bell was the third damage claim I had in about a two-year period.

--The first was a Kennedy rolling toolbox which they took away and claimed they never could find again, although UPS paid my full purchase price plus shipping--after I had sent a demand letter with photos to the UPS general counsel on my legal letterhead stationery.

--The second damaged purchase was an upscale, very wide, wooden venetian blind, which I kept, although UPS paid me full purchase price plus shipping.

The trick is to bug them. Submit pictures of the damage and a repair estimate from a shop, then call them every day wanting to know the status of the claim. Keep a record of the name of every person you talk to, the date, and what you were told. When they realize you're organized, and not going away, they'll settle. I actually got more than the repair estimate (which was itself inflated), because the geniuses lost my file.

SK

Is it out of line to ask some of the repairmen on this forum what an estimate would be? I understand it may be difficult to get a true estimate without showing the horn, but for the purposes of providing it to UPS and the eventual repairs needed, I will need to find a quality repair.

It seems the best in the business are regular contributors to the forum.

Is it "just" the bell?

bort wrote:Is it "just" the bell?

The bell was the only thing damaged, but it was pretty extensive. I'm not sure if the detailed engraving makes a difference from a repair perspective. From what I can tell, the horn looks like it was dropped on the bell with considerable force. The buyer actually owns his own moving/storage company and said that it was package very poorly.

Because it was packaged by a UPS store the claim is being handled directly by the UPS store. I've provided pictures of the before and after, the packaging is being maintained by the buyer (he didnt even pull it all the way out when he saw the damage), and the UPS rep viewed it today. They have asked for documentation of the value, which the only thing I can come up with was the auction invoice (although I think its worth more). UPS may ask for a repair estimate, but no one in my area does this type of work, and I'm not sure if its appropriate to bother a repairman with an estimate request for this situation.

Im not really sure how UPS could not take responsibility, but nothing really surprised me anymore. I will keep everyone posted as to the outcome.

Liberty Mo wrote:They have asked for documentation of the value, which the only thing I can come up with was the auction invoice (although I think its worth more). UPS may ask for a repair estimate, but no one in my area does this type of work, and I'm not sure if its appropriate to bother a repairman with an estimate request for this situation.

If the repair tech who provides the estimate will not be doing the repair, pay for the estimate and have the tech include the in the estimate.

Because it was packaged by a UPS store the claim is being handled directly by the UPS store. [snip]

Im not really sure how UPS could not take responsibility, but nothing really surprised me anymore.

I suggest you get a hold of a copy of UPS' "Terms and Conditions of Carriage" and read through it, paying particular attention to the sections on packaging, third party retailer, responsibility for loss or damage, and liability limits.

Among the interesting revelations contained therein:

UPS Stores are independently owned and operated franchises of Mailboxes Etc., and are NOT agents of UPS (¶13) -- betcha didn't know THAT, did you?;

UPS's liability extends ONLY to the shipper of record, which, in this instance, is the UPS Store (¶13);

Even if UPS responds directly to customers of the Third Party Retailer regarding tracking requests, UPS will not be liable to those customers (¶13);

The Third Party Retailer is solely responsible for the issuance of any refunds and claims to
those who shipped packages via the Third Party Retailer (¶13);

It is the responsibility of the shipper to ensure that proper packaging is used and that contents of packages are adequately and securely packed, wrapped, and cushioned for transportation. [snip] The use of UPS-provided packaging is not a guarantee that an item is sufficiently packaged for transportation. UPS does not provide special handling for packages with “Fragile,” package orientation (e.g., “UP” arrows or “This End Up” markings), or any other similar such markings (¶7);

When a shipper declares a value in excess of $100, it does not receive any form of insurance. Shippers desiring cargo insurance, all risk insurance, or another form of insurance should purchase such insurance from a third party (¶ 49).

All of which means that you better hope the UPS Store you shipped from doesn't go bust before your claim is settled, 'cuz they're the ones who are on the hook, not UPS.

Just an update. I received a check from the UPS store for the auction price of the instrument plus the shipping and packaging costs. It was relatively painless, I provided a few copies of invoices, UPS sent a rep to view the damage and that was that.

I also was able to purchase the horn back at a very good "salvage price."

I think the key factor was that the UPS store did the packaging in this case, regardless it was handled rather well.

I once sold a guitar, a lovely black Les Paul Custom, on ebay. UPS stuck a forklift through the box into the body of the guitar. The buyer did all the dealing with UPS, with only a little help from me. It took several months of bugging them, but he did get paid, I believe. So don't hold your breath, but I would say getting a settlement eventually is not out of the question.

talleyrand wrote:I once sold a guitar, a lovely black Les Paul Custom, on ebay. UPS stuck a forklift through the box into the body of the guitar. The buyer did all the dealing with UPS, with only a little help from me. It took several months of bugging them, but he did get paid, I believe. So don't hold your breath, but I would say getting a settlement eventually is not out of the question.

Ladies and gentlemen...I present the "oops, I didn't read the last post" post of the week! What do we have for him, Johnny O?

I am a little curious about one thing, though, Liberty:

Since you were the seller, and presumably were paid by the buyer before you shipped this...

Why did you get the check from the UPS store?

Liberty Mo wrote:Because it was packaged by a UPS store the claim is being handled directly by the UPS store.

!@#$%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What?!?!?!

I don't mean to offend you, but that was a terrible move on your part. Shipping with UPS....that part is fine. Trusting a packaging place that knows nothing about the amount of packaging truly needed to ship a tuba.......BAD move. There are some things in life that you MUST do yourself. Packing a tuba for shipment is one of them. You pretty much have to package it like you are shipping a Ming vase.

Rant aside, I truly wish you the best of luck resolving this with UPS.

TubaTodd wrote:Rant aside, I truly wish you the best of luck resolving this with UPS.

Do you people have Liberty on Ignore or something? It's been resolved!!!

Liberty Mo wrote:Just an update. I received a check from the UPS store for the auction price of the instrument plus the shipping and packaging costs. It was relatively painless, I provided a few copies of invoices, UPS sent a rep to view the damage and that was that.

I also was able to purchase the horn back at a very good "salvage price."

I think the key factor was that the UPS store did the packaging in this case, regardless it was handled rather well.

Pay attention, class!!!!

Todd S. Malicoate wrote: I am a little curious about one thing, though, Liberty:

Since you were the seller, and presumably were paid by the buyer before you shipped this...

Why did you get the check from the UPS store?

Because:

A) per EBAY policy, insurance is for the benefit of the seller, not the buyer;

Information for Sellers:

Information for sellers
Problem: The item you sold was lost or damaged in shipping.

Next Steps: If you insured the package, contact the shipping company or insurance company to file a claim.

Note: Even if the item was not insured, you're still responsible for the item until the buyer receives it.

Contact your buyer to work out a solution. If you file an insurance claim, the shipping company or the insurance company may need to contact the buyer to verify the claim and inspect the item and its packaging before resolving your claim.

so, upon acknowledgement of the damage by Liberty, Ebay will have credited the buyer for the amount of the sale and debited Liberty accordingly;

B) the UPS Store's contractual obligation is with their customer, i.e., the person shipping the package, not the package recipient.