TubeNet

bloke wrote:A person on TubeNet sent me this link.

http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/career-article ... grees-1263

"Music" is the 4th worst-paying college degree-related profession, and "Education" is the 7th-worst...

...so "Music Education" must lie somewhere between...(??)

bloke "no surprises"

With "No Child Left Alone", you subtract them both, so you get the -1 worst...

4. Music (starting annual salary: $34,000; mid-career annual salary: $52,000

Those numbers, if they are true, are really not that bad. $52,000 is good money in most areas unless you live in the heart of NYC or Silicon Valley. I have been out of high school about 21 years, so that would put me close to "mid career," and my IT job pays less than that.

I am sure lots of struggling musicians would love to make 34K their first year out of school - where do they come up with those numbers? (Unless the averages are highly skewed by a few $$,$$$,$$$.xx pop singers.)

Marty's right, those numbers aren't awful, though numbers are only part of the story. And also, everyone has the freedom to NOT have that job or get another job. Every company has it's lifers, but most people want to advance and move up the ladder.

$50,000 is pretty decent, though it is far different in NYC than it is in rural Arkansas or anywhere in small-town-America. And $50,000 for a single person is also WAY different than $50,000 in a single-earner household with 4 kids.

I was watching a home show on TV the other day. The couple bought a nice-looking house in Cincinatti for something like $125,000. Have I ever seen a house for less than $2xx,xxx? I gotta head out west!

I am not sure why they rank elementary education less than any other education. In PA anyway it doens't matter what you teach. all the teachers in our school district are on the same pay scale. Is it different in other states? I teach elementary music and I am on the same pay scale as a HS teacher. Now I can see if you end up teachiong in a pre school or a private school (or even most private colleges) then you are not going to make as much as in a public school. Again my experience is in PA.

ken "plus i get the summers off..."k

A degree in theology projected an income between musicians and elementary education. One could say I am an under achiever regarding income potential when my new avocation is music, specifically playing the tuba again.

bloke wrote:
I believe the $5XK whatever might refer to those towards the other end of the deal (either in places where it costs a fortune to live, or people that have been doing it for decades with fancy degrees).

Average teacher salary in my suburban midwest school district for a town of 50,000 people last year was $105,000 and the superintendent was paid $378,000. The school district next door had an average salary of $102,500. Not bad for a job that you get the summer off, get every holiday known to mankind off, a pension that is 80% of your salary and a full benefit package with minimal payment for health care. I know there are places where teachers are vastly underpaid, but that is really not true in many places like my area.

Here they complain mightly that they are still underpaid and are demanding a 4% hike for each of the next three years. The union keeps the starting salary fairly low so they can convince the public how poorly paid the teachers are. However, that salary after 5 years ramps up very quickly. This town has an average salary of $88,000 per household, so it is hard to convince me that somehow teachers here are underpaid relative to the rest of the community. We just spent $127,000,000 for an addition to one of the two high schools and $85,000,000 just for a new middle school. The place is set in a forest and looks more like a retreat rather than a school. The old superintendent said we had great schools, but we need to spend even more if we want to be "World Class". The school board is stuffed with retired teachers elected with a ton of union money behind them and they seem to have no regard for taxpayers. Our property taxes are already "World Class".

Tofu... where is that? You said "union"... Chicago?

I have no trouble with those salaries for teachers, so long as there is responsibility and accountability. It'd be a real shame if we had schools with a highly qualified and highly trained staff of teachers.

Teachers in Singapore (whose kids run laps around some of ours) are among the highest paid workers in their country. (And aren't the Singapore parents, as a whole, a lot more involved in their kids education than ours?)

Well, Singapore ain't the US, that's for sure.

Well, hopefully those who are in school getting their Music Education degree aren't in it for the money. I would like to think that people are in it to teach our "young 'uns" the benefit of music and playing an instrument WITHOUT worrying about how much money they're making!

I've seen quite a few people quit their music education degree because they were worried about their own financial security, which is NOT a bad thing! But, I think you can pull it off if you're smart with your money (who knows how to do that anymore, Ha!).

bort wrote:I was watching a home show on TV the other day. The couple bought a nice-looking house in Cincinatti for something like $125,000. Have I ever seen a house for less than $2xx,xxx? I gotta head out west!

Hey Brett, come down to San Antonio. For around $200,000, that'll get you a large 4-5 bedroom, 3-4 bath in the nicest part in town. Houses around here go for as low as $40,000 (I wouldn't live there, though).

cwarren wrote:Well, hopefully those who are in school getting their Music Education degree aren't in it for the money. I would like to think that people are in it to teach our "young 'uns" the benefit of music and playing an instrument WITHOUT worrying about how much money they're making!

I've seen quite a few people quit their music education degree because they were worried about their own financial security, which is NOT a bad thing! But, I think you can pull it off if you're smart with your money (who knows how to do that anymore, Ha!).

Amen to that. I *could've* gone for an Engineering (or Computer Programming) degree, but I wanted to do Music Education because that's what I love to do. So, when someone can find a house under $2XX,XXX, and make a starting salary of around $5X,XXX, living in Texas is not all that bad.

If making big bucks is your primary motive for becoming a teacher, you're wasting your time and you won't last long. Find something else to do.

JJ

UTSAtuba wrote:

bort wrote:I was watching a home show on TV the other day. The couple bought a nice-looking house in Cincinatti for something like $125,000. Have I ever seen a house for less than $2xx,xxx? I gotta head out west!

Hey Brett, come down to San Antonio. For around $200,000, that'll get you a large 4-5 bedroom, 3-4 bath in the nicest part in town. Houses around here go for as low as $40,000 (I wouldn't live there, though).

Dang. Haha, maybe I should come down to San Antonio. In the Baltimore area, you could easily double those numbers (and not have 5 beds/4 baths, that's *huge*). Get closer to DC and you're easily tripling those numbers...

UTSAtuba wrote: Amen to that. I *could've* gone for an Engineering (or Computer Programming) degree, but I wanted to do Music Education because that's what I love to do. So, when someone can find a house under $2XX,XXX, and make a starting salary of around $5X,XXX, living in Texas is not all that bad.

You can really START at $50,000 teaching music? Around these parts, especially once you leave the "big cities" it is low 30's.
According to this, Texas starts mid 30's. I doubt the band director stipend is 15 grand.
What's really scary, is that North Dakota starts under 25.
http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state

MartyNeilan wrote:

UTSAtuba wrote: Amen to that. I *could've* gone for an Engineering (or Computer Programming) degree, but I wanted to do Music Education because that's what I love to do. So, when someone can find a house under $2XX,XXX, and make a starting salary of around $5X,XXX, living in Texas is not all that bad.

You can really START at $50,000 teaching music? Around these parts, especially once you leave the "big cities" it is low 30's.
According to this, Texas starts mid 30's. I doubt the band director stipend is 15 grand.
What's really scary, is that North Dakota starts under 25.
http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state

This is an example of one of the more *rich* districts in town...but it does cover about half of the city (area-wise). http://www.nisd.net/hr/compensation/200 ... 202009.htm" target="_blank

That's before a stipend...

Joseph

There is a saying, "Crime does not pay...neither does police work"

I can't complain. I have a job that I love, that pays decent, that has excellent benefits and retirement. Much like education, you don't get into the business to get rich. There are other motivators, dorky as it sounds, to make a difference in people's lives, or the community.

Most important is to "do what you love and love what you do". My salary pays enough that I can do the stuff that I want, and buy the stuff that I want (with enough planning.) Can't ask for much more than that.

I think 100k is much more in line with the cost of living! I am a UNION Steam Fitter, and I usually defend other Unions, as they keep wages(and benefits) closer to where they should be! And it is so PATHETIC how little teachers and folks caring for the elderly make, when one considers how much we claim to love and cherish our children and our parents! My gripe with the Teacher's Union(s) is that they will DEFEND a crappy, ineffective member to the end! In most Building Trades Unions(Electricians, plumbers, Carpenters,etc...) you can be fired or laid off for lack of performance! If a board of your peers determines you were WRONGLY terminated, you win a grievance! If YOU are determined to be lacking, you are offered further training! Also, remember wages have risen about 400% since the '60's, but housing, transportation, insurance,etc.. is up 1000-2000%!Al.

cwarren wrote: I've seen quite a few people quit their music education degree because they were worried about their own financial security, which is NOT a bad thing!

It might be a bad thing to think some other degree program will guarantee financial security, though, if the job market doesn't pick up noticeably in the next 5-10 years.

When I went to school, a lot of us took the `liberal arts' route, and then got good jobs that didn't have any obvious connection with their degrees. But I guess those days are gone.

Donn wrote:When I went to school, a lot of us took the `liberal arts' route, and then got good jobs that didn't have any obvious connection with their degrees. But I guess those days are gone.

No, they aren't. A couple of things have happened:

1.) College has become ubiquitous. We have come to believe that a college degree is an entry point into the workforce, and as such having a college degree is no longer exceptional.

2.) Because we expect a college degree for everyone, we have downgraded what we expect of a college degree, from a broad, general education to learning a set of skills.

Even in engineering, I see it. The engineering profession keeps asking universities to provide more daily skill training in their degree programs, and only now are universities really starting to push back and focus on basic theoretical skills rather than on software manipulation skills (which go stale in about 15 minutes anyway). But rushing in to take the place of those universities pushing back are the "job-training" universities that target adult education. Those used to be called vocational schools, but now even vocational schools are expected to deliver a college degree.

A broad education from a respected university still says something about the person who earned it. I'd rather hire someone with a liberal arts degree from a good college than someone with an online business degree from the University of Phoenix. But when I'm hiring an engineer, I have to hire the credentials, and even with that I'll take someone with a broader and more theoretical education from a traditional engineering college over a more job-skill-oriented degree, even if they need more initial training (which they usually don't).

These influences are, in part, a reflection of the economy. But bad times end in good times, and good times end in bad times. People with a good education are still best equipped to prosper.

There is another influence: Hiring laws have changed such that those who hire for large organizations must have a range of specialized skills and knowledge. That means that hiring has moved away from the people who are responsible for getting work done to HR specialists. HR specialists are often no equipped to understand the value of theoretical training, and instead look for specific credentials and experiences. Applicants can sometimes overcome this problem by how they write their resume, but just at a time when that has become more important than ever, new applicants are showing reduced ability to understand what needs to be expressed and how to express it.

On topic: Any activity that people do for free just because they want to is going to present a tough challenge to those who want to be paid. That applies to musicians and other artists, but not really to teachers. The plight of teachers is a direct result of education policy, however.

Rick "thinking most educational institutions don't even know how to identify and recognize good teachers, let alone how to reward and motivate them" Denney

Perhaps this might have something to do with it??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Wqy1R0Ve8" target="_blank

Rick Denney wrote: A broad education from a respected university still says something about the person who earned it. I'd rather hire someone with a liberal arts degree from a good college than someone with an online business degree from the University of Phoenix. But when I'm hiring an engineer, I have to hire the credentials, and even with that I'll take someone with a broader and more theoretical education from a traditional engineering college over a more job-skill-oriented degree, even if they need more initial training (which they usually don't).

Of course, if you aren't actually hiring anyone, then your hypothetical preferences don't matter much. That was my main point - anecdotally, maybe someone's getting hired out of college, but it would be interesting to hear if any degree programs are doing so much better at placing graduates that it would be worth giving up on music education. If only a fraction of college graduates are going to get good jobs anyway, might as well focus your efforts on something that you care about.

But, speaking of anecdotes - I spent 20 years as a `software engineer', with about 3 credits formal education in computer science and/or engineering. Hardly any of my colleagues had CSE backgrounds, up until recently. From my perspective, things have changed.