Question for those with 23(M3) fifth valves

[Yosef: Tubist]

http://www.chisham.com/tips/fingerings/CC.html" target="_blank

the original poster is talking about a Fifth valve with the M3 setup, not the flat whole step...

sorry ben, wish I could help

[Yosef: Tubist]

A buddy of mine plays an old Meinl Weston with a 2-3 combo, search his tubenet handle, "keegan watson"

[Blake Dowling]

I played on a Miraphone 186 with this setup for a short time. I used 53 for the F 4 ledger lines down and 54 for that Eb. I didn't have the horn long enough to really need any others. I hope this helps.

[bort]

http://www.chisham.com/tips/fingerings/CC.html" target="_blank

Ahem...

SNAG-0472.jpg

[arpthark]

I only know of one person personally who plays with that set-up, but after some research I think he uses a different tuning than most folks. I went over to his place to try out some tubas and I think he advised me to play low F (on CC tuba) as 1-2-5 and low Eb as 4-5, but I didn't have a tuner handy and could be mistaken. Anybody know the origin of the 2-3 fifth valve combo? Was it more common in a certain time or a certain place?

[DHMTuba]

My '74 186 has the major 3rd 5th valve. According to the fingering chart Mirafone provided with the horn:

F = 235
E = 45
Eb = 245
D = 1245
Db = 2345

HTH

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I "trained" on a Yamaha with the long 5th valve.

The best part, IMO, was being able to play Db (just below the staff) and Gb (3 ledger lines below the staff) 1-2-5. The intonation was much improved and the finger pattern seemed to "fit" well in the lots-of-flat keys.

Other fingerings for me on that horn:

F 1-2-4 (1st slide push)
E 2-3-4 (occasionally 4-5)
Eb 1-4-5 (1st slide all in)
D 1-2-4-5 (some 1st slide pull)
Db 1-3-4-5 (pretty good 1st slide pull)

I never remember using the 5th valve only for notes in the Ab harmonic series, but I don't think it was for intonation reasons. IIRC, the valve was set so that Ab was pretty dead-on.

[DHMTuba]

CCC = 12345 (nice for very soft, covered pedal)

Interesting! I never thought of that one - I'll have to check it out. You learn something every day (or hope to, anyway).

[jonesbrass]

My '74 186 has the major 3rd 5th valve. According to the fingering chart Mirafone provided with the horn:

F = 235
E = 45
Eb = 245
D = 1245
Db = 2345

HTH

Those are the fingerings I used on my 188. the Major Third set-up was standard for Miraphones' contrabass tubas up until recently when the flat whole-step has become more or less "standard." Earlier in tuba history, the fourth valve went through this same development. FWIW, I like the M3 set-up on contrabasses, but NOT on F bass tubas.

[bort]

My '74 186 has the major 3rd 5th valve. According to the fingering chart Mirafone provided with the horn:

F = 235
E = 45
Eb = 245
D = 1245
Db = 2345

CCC = 12345 (nice for very soft, covered pedal)

This agrees with how I tend to use the long fifth valve on my Alex. (In that extreme range, some slide pulling is also required)

RC

Ben, disregard my PM, I remember now -- it's been almost 10 years, but now I remember this is what I used too on my PT-3 in college. Playing F 235 worked really well on that tuba.

[tubaforce]

Hi! I've mentioned this on other threads, but aside from the benefits in the extreme low range, I don't see much use for the 2-3 5th! With the flat whole step on my CC tuba, I simply tune 2nd line Bb with 5th valve, and first space below F with 1st valve! I hardly ever need to throttle my axe, except for the RARE occasion I need a low Db, and that note is usually lippable 12345, with maybe a slight pull on 1st! First space A and Ab play 5-2, and 5-1 respectively, and 3 is pulled just enough for 1st ledger line E, and Eb! Also a wise man once told me he fine tunes his slides every time he plays, and you may be surprised what your tuner reveals in that area! Al.

[djwesp]

I simply tune 2nd line Bb with 5th valve, and first space below F with 1st valve.

I do not follow. This would undoubtedly make the low F horrendously sharp?

[tubaforce]

Hi! Why would my low F be sharp? I play it 4+3. That has worked great for the 8 years or so I've had the axe! As far as 2nd line Bb and first space under F, I have those notes in tune, so I have no need to ride my 1st. valve slide! and A and Ab play fine using the 5+2 and5+1 fingerings! First ledger line below E is great as is Eb, although some times I waffle between 1+2, and 3 for E! I am just suggesting that this system has served me well, not that it's for everyone! It seems to me the 2+3 5th would be great for 1st. space Ab, and maybe facilitate pedal Db/C#, but I get a good sound on that pitch using12345! Al.

[djwesp]

Instead of tuning the F, which you use probably all the time, with the 5-4 fingering, you use 3-4 which is out of tune... and you do this so you can have the 5th valve tuned sharp to fix the tuning in the low range that is going to be sharp anyways...

Am I missing something?

Why wouldn't you tune the 5th valve to the low F, after you tune the 4th valve, after you tune the fundamental? By doing this the 5-4 is solid F, not awkward; then you also have compensated (to the flat side) for that partial of the horn.

I'm interested in hearing about this method, I think it is interesting to discuss the intricacies of fingering combinations and "whys".

Wes "who thinks the european method of 3 instead of 1-2 is an interesting debate as well"

[tubaforce]

Good morning! I tune second space C with my tuner, and then, in a Band, I tune 5th valve to the oboeist's Bb. 4th is tuned for low G and second ledger space D. F tunes with 1st valve, and 1st ledger line E is in tune using 3rd valve! Then I'm ready to go!F# 4 ledger lines below is the only "tricky" note I need to worry about, and because the 2nd valve slide is already too long on my Cerveney, it's not that bad! The main advantage is not having to ride the 1st valve slide, though! I only throttle the horn for sustained lower notes! Al.

[tubaforce]

Hi! I just wanted to add a few things! When I first bought my Cerveney, I had only played on BBb's and Eb's. The best axe I spent any significant amount of time with was a Yamaha 641. I had only returned to the Tuba for 18 months(after a 7-year hiatus), and had never touched a C Tuba with any number of valves! I live an hour and a half north of the Marcincewicz shop, so , after a week with my Helleberg M.P., I drove down to test mouthpieces against each other, checking for best intonation and listening for tone quality. I left with a Self model mouthpiece, and have been happy with it and the Helleberg for 8 years. The point is, that I tried every note against the tuner(and my ear), and arrived at the fingerings that worked best for me! Another thing I've noticed is the tendency of Tuba players not realizing how sharp we tend to play when in the "basement" range! I started to notice the problems while playing String bass. The usually reliable pitch from the Tubas was considerably sharp down low, and the guys weren't noticing it 'till I turned my amp their way! I think most of the time the pitch just doesn't settle in, and with no sustained reference, we just get by. That prompted me to do some serious work with the tuner, and put some real effort into hitting those low pitches.With a Double Bass, as long as your fingers are where they need to be, you're golden! On Tuba, there is much more room for inaccuracy! I was unpleasantly surprised at how out I was!After much experimentation, I arrived at valve combinations that have served me well, giving me the best results!