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...what BBb tuba would you buy?

I need/want one for a high school student, a rising junior. But I've got a mental block against spending more than than, or really even that much, on a horn for someone who may only play two more years, for anything I know. I have two horns, but one he understandably doesn't want to use in a concert band (a Yamaha 103) and one I'm not willing to have schlepped back and forth to school.

Chinese? Something used?

If they are that serious, they may want to consider a CC. The best all around -new- CC in that range is the Schiller (aka M&M, JZ, Dillon) copy of the 186. While some of the Schillers have gotten mixed reviews, the 186 copy (aka Schillaphone) has been warmly received with only minor criticism.

A 2340 three banger King could be easily had for under $2000 and for even under $1000. These are pretty nice horns that can be played in tune and are tough as nails. The lack of a fourth valve, in reality, is not that big of a deal. The fourth valve is useful for about 5-6 notes on the bottom end but for a HS student, it is not really necessary if you are trying to cut costs. They aren't really mouthpiece specific- a Helleberg if you like funnels or a Bach 18 if you like bowls will be just fine.

You *might* be able to get a beat up 2341 4v for under $2000 but overall condition and playability of the horn is more important than the fourth valve.

Ugly 186s might be had for $2K but they also might have problems such as loose valves and linkages (S or otherwise) which would cost a fair amount to make right. This goes for any other significant problems in any used horn you might buy. Tuba repairs are not cheap so take that into account when you are evaluating a prospective horn.

The Chinese horns might do the job but, if you think you might be selling the horn in a few years because the tuba didn't "stick" with the kid, you will lose money on the deal. A used King, Conn, Yamaha or other "major" manufacturer horns could probably be sold in a couple of years for what you paid for it.

BTW: the Yamaha 103 could do the job until you find out if the kid is really serious about tuba. If it pans out, maybe you could spring for a nicer horn or the kid could pay for more of the horn himself.

Jeff "Cheap horns are not necessarily good horns" Benedict

The Big Ben wrote:Jeff "Cheap horns are not necessarily good horns" Benedict

And neither are conventional 3-valve horns for anything but Jr High.

Hi! I know some of you are going to disagree, but I personally think 3-valve(non-comp) tubas should be OUTLAWED! having said that, the old Taylor music site has had several 3-valve comped Besson Recording basses for 2 grand with cases, and they've been there a while! Also they have several 24-J's for around 27 hundred with cases! I can't speak for the Bessons, as I've only played on their three and four valve UPRIGHTS, but except for the infamous "nut buster ball" on the bottom, and the almost unreachable 4th valve, they played well! As to the 24- J, It's a BIG axe, but a stand works wonders for smaller players, and the sound will balance a 50 piece band in capable hands! Al.

You might be able to find a nice St. Petersburg 202 for around that price.

Thanks for all these suggestions! I think I've found the solution. We'll see. If it works out, I'll post about it.

tubaforce wrote:Hi! I know some of you are going to disagree, but I personally think 3-valve(non-comp) tubas should be OUTLAWED! having said that, the old Taylor music site has had several 3-valve comped Besson Recording basses for 2 grand with cases, and they've been there a while!

Have you ever tried to play a Besson recording bell? I have. The reason they're still unsold is that there is simply no way to see around the low-rider 24 inch bell these beasts have. As much as I love my Besson 3-valve comp with its 17 inch upright bell, there is no way I can stand to play the recording bell version. And the problem is that the bell throat is a different diameter than just about everything else out there, so there is no good way to reengineer a replacement upright bell for them. The only way to do it is to purchase an old hulk that still has a fairly decent 17 inch conventional bell and do the swap, which would cost more than they are worth.

OK, here's how the prior generation played a 3-valve non-comp, which still holds for most conventional souzys as well, and those who are attached to a King 1250, Martin, Reynolds, etc., or Conn 20J: pull 1 & 2 each a couple of cents flat so 1+2 is easily lippable, but not so flat that 1 or 2 alone still can be centered to pitch. Pull 3 so that 2+3 is a hair flat, but can be brought to pitch by raising the back of the tongue to accelerate the air through the embouchure, so that 1+3 is lippable. 1+2+3 -- forget it.

As for those Besson bell fronts hindering vision: what’s the problem? Just handle it like the Australian army handles its hat brims:



Might even further the lateral projection.
K

Hi! Thanks to iiipopes for the enlightenment! I never had too much difficulty with a 20 or24-J getting a clear shot of the director! Now that I look at the Besson, I can see what a pain it would be, even if you put the Tuba on the extreme stage left! Al.

For a high school tubist who is big and strong enough to schlep it around, a 3-valve recording-bell King is by far the most bang for the buck. Big fat sound, good intonation, and one of the best "false pedal" notes of any tuba made. If you flip the first valve slide around so it can be pulled on the fly you can get low B-natural down to pitch with an easy pull. And if you saw about an inch and a quarter off the third valve tubing you can get D-flat and G-flat in tune. Those are both really easy modifications. (It's not bad even without those corrections.) Those old Kings are also far more durable than most other tubas. They usuallly go for less than $700 on Ebay.

A couple good ones here you might want to keep your eye on..

Conn 25J
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-CONN-25-J-B ... 4aa10692f3" target="_blank" target="_blank

Meinl Weston 4 banger
http://cgi.ebay.com/pre-1989-W-Meinl-We ... 3effb2e16f" target="_blank" target="_blank

King 2340
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Piece-4-4-King-Tuba-/120518482971" target="_blank" target="_blank?
cmd=ViewItem&pt=Brass_Instruments&hash=item1c0f761c1b

Martin 3 valve
http://cgi.ebay.com/BBb-Martin-Tuba-Det ... 563aec5195" target="_blank" target="_blank

Heres' a really nice Conn 5J here in the for sale section. These are great horns

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39071" target="_blank

talleyrand wrote:...what BBb tuba would you buy?

I need/want one for a high school student, a rising junior. But I've got a mental block against spending more than than, or really even that much, on a horn for someone who may only play two more years, for anything I know. I have two horns, but one he understandably doesn't want to use in a concert band (a Yamaha 103) and one I'm not willing to have schlepped back and forth to school.

Chinese? Something used?

There are some very good Chinese horns on the market for those who are on a budget and want a good quality instrument. As an owner of 2 (Schillbrunner and M&M TU 2000) I am very happy with the quality and would highly recommend both.

JJ

TUBAD83 wrote:
There are some very good Chinese horns on the market for those who are on a budget and want a good quality instrument. As an owner of 2 (Schillbrunner and M&M TU 2000) I am very happy with the quality and would highly recommend both.

JJ

I wasn't going to say so until I get it in my hands, because I've lurked here and elsewhere enough to know the reviews are mixed and it is a bit of a risk, but in fact I'm going with the Schillbrunner. I'm optimistic but anxious. We'll see.

Also I've taken the Yamaha 103 to the shop for a little refurbishing in preparation for sale. We'll see if I actually sell it when the time comes, but I'm telling myself it's going to be extra.

Hey! I almost forgot about those old kings! My 13 y/o daughter is playing one(on a stand!) right now in middle school. The false tones aren't as easy as on my King Eb recording bass, but they are usable. And she's balancing a 30 piece band by herself. Still I don't care for 3 valved non comps! I feel like telling directors they should try playing there saxes or whatever without an octave key! And the price for a decent 3 valve axe isn't that much cheaper than the 4 valve version of the same axe! Yes, a beginner won't need 4th valve, but how many kids start on Tuba in grade school? the little districts in my area don't have Tubas for elementary kids unless the director is THE guy/gal K-12 for the district! Also, in addition to woodwind player's ignorance regarding 4th valve, it seems they aren't being taught in class brass about using those old Eb's in their closets! Al.