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Can anybody identify what European horn Jinbao cloned/copied to make this F tuba?

http://jinbaomusic.en.alibaba.com/produ ... _Tuba.html

M & M sells it, but for $3700. That's quite a markup on a horn that costs $983+shipping at wholesale, even with their trips to china and checking each horn and such. I could go to China and pick it out myself for a lot less than that.

I'm thinking about trying to get one (preferably without going to China or paying $3700, kids going to college soon and all that), but I'd like to know what instrument it *really* is first.

Looks like a Miraphone 281 Firebird copy to me:

http://www.wwbw.com/Miraphone-281-Fireb ... 13088.wwbw

HI-
I think(?) it is a Miraphone 180 or 181 copy--not sure..you might want to try out the Eb 'Fletcher' clone--amazing horn for the money..
mark

talleyrand wrote:M & M sells it, but for $3700. That's quite a markup on a horn that costs $983+shipping at wholesale, even with their trips to china and checking each horn and such. I could go to China and pick it out myself for a lot less than that.

No, you can't.

Jinbao does not to end users in China. You have to order by the lot, 5 instruments per tuba model minimum, for shipment 45 days after receiving payment.

Furthermore, per Chinese government policy, many goods--of all kinds, not just musical instruments--are made solely for export and are not available for sale in China. So the fact that a Chinese-made clone is available for export does not mean you can buy it in China.

Furthermore, per Chinese government policy, many goods--of all kinds, not just musical instruments--are made solely for export and are not available for sale in China. So the fact that a Chinese-made clone is available for export does not mean you can buy it in China.

You're right, in theory....


However, around here, it all depends on who you know. I'm not arguing legal/illegal or ethical/unethical. It's just how it is.

No, you can't.

Jinbao does not to end users in China. You have to order by the lot, 5 instruments per tuba model minimum, for shipment 45 days after receiving payment.

You are right. I have learned this also. But it turns out there are retailers posing as wholesalers who sell them by the piece for a relatively small markup.

The shipping is huge. It looks like I could get one of these here all things considered for about $2300.

But to do it I'd have to do business with a guy I don't know who is posing as one kind of business while operating another, so I probably won't try it.

HI-
I have been told that not all Chinese clones are alike. For example, M&M instruments are made to the specs of M&M and are not just another Jin Bao product. Jin Bao does make instruments marketed as brands: Schiller, JZ, Dillon, M&M--but I am told the M&M instruments are done to their-M&M- specs and design-and not just the same as others with 'M&M' stamped on them. I'd contact Michael at M&M for more info on this....
Regards-
mark

the tuba linked by the original poster is a copy of the cerveny 653 f tuba body 'improved' with 6 valves.

i think you can buy a cerveny 653 f tuba for similar money.

Hi, Talleyrand! Contact me at uptightbass@yahoo.com" target="_blank if you still want one of these! Al.

tubaforce wrote:Hi, Talleyrand! Contact me at uptightbass@yahoo.com" target="_blank" target="_blank if you still want one of these! Al.

email sent.

cjk wrote:the tuba linked by the original poster is a copy of the cerveny 653 f tuba body 'improved' with 6 valves.

i think you can buy a cerveny 653 f tuba for similar money.

Kinda... the specs are a little off.

Cerveny 653:
Bore: 18.0 mm (.709")
Bell: 360 mm (14.17")
Height: 820mm (32.28")

Jinbao:
Bore: 19mm (.748")
Bell: 385mm (15")
Height: 896mm (36")

A new (5-valve) Cerveny 653 is only slightly more than a new Jinbao. Used is even better -- I got my Cerveny 653 for about $1000 less than a new Jinbao. I think it's a little foolish to spend $3700 on a Clone-o-phone (but that's just me).

Two people, an eBay seller and a seller I found on another site, have now offered it to me for about the same price: $1850 and $1847 respectively, including shipping.

talleyrand wrote:Two people, an eBay seller and a seller I found on another site, have now offered it to me for about the same price: $1850 and $1847 respectively, including shipping.

Ok, that makes more sense.

I'd still rather shell out the extra dough for the Cerveny. Just a little more gets you this one:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39486" target="_blank

Hi-
Does anyone on this forum own one of these 6 valve F tubas from M&M? If so, how about a review on the instrument?
Thanks-
mark

bort wrote:

cjk wrote:the tuba linked by the original poster is a copy of the cerveny 653 f tuba body 'improved' with 6 valves.

i think you can buy a cerveny 653 f tuba for similar money.

Kinda... the specs are a little off.

Cerveny 653:
Bore: 18.0 mm (.709")
Bell: 360 mm (14.17")
Height: 820mm (32.28")

Jinbao:
Bore: 19mm (.748")
Bell: 385mm (15")
Height: 896mm (36")

A new (5-valve) Cerveny 653 is only slightly more than a new Jinbao. Used is even better -- I got my Cerveny 653 for about $1000 less than a new Jinbao. I think it's a little foolish to spend $3700 on a Clone-o-phone (but that's just me).

hmmmm... you might be right. I cannot think of an F-tuba with a straight .748" (19mm) valve set. I thought I had seen this tuba listed with an 18mm bore size. I found that:




However, this picture has some interesting specs on it. .708" = 18 mm, not 19mm. 19mm = .748" like the specs everywhere else .

One of the things that made me think Cerveny copy is the bottom bow ferrules. On most horns the bottom bow ferrules are right about the same height on both sides. On Cerveny F tubas, the ferrule on the bell side is almost always lower than the one on the valve side.

But you are right that the specs don't exactly match any F tuba I've ever seen.

I thought it was a Miraphone 180 clone:

bell diameter 380 mm (14,961 inch)
- 4/4
- rotary valves
- bore of valve section 18,0 mm (0,709 inch)
- spiral spring system

Again, kinda. The numbers match, but the style doesn't, like the offset ferrules that cjk mentioned. Also, the 180 has a tuning slide "pretzel" instead of a U-shape.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was based on a Miraphone something or another. They seem to be attacking the Miraphone designs pretty hard.