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I have a private student who is very motivated and whose parents don't have a bunch of money. Any recommendations for a horn for him? Should it be a CC or should he stick with a BBb? I don't think his parent's (or his, really) intention is a career as a musician, but he has come along very nicely for a two year student switching from Euph. I recently saw Dillon Music had a VMI 103 in good shape for $2800. This seemed like a good deal, but there may be others out there people might recommend? He liked my 186 BBb, and is ready for a full sized horn. Next week, they are paying me to go to the BBC with him and play some horns, but unless they are looking for a CC or to spent more money, they will only see Chinese horns in their 'reasonable' range.

I may be way off track here (and feel free to ignore me if I am), but...

Why on earth would you even recommend that the parents of a 9th grader who has shown no desire to "be a musician" buy him his own tuba? What's wrong with the school instruments?

Please, please, please don't take this as "bashing." I simply don't understand why a student that young needs their own instrument with the possible exception of someone attending a fine arts school or otherwise incredibly gifted and advanced for their age. The fact that his parents "don't have a bunch of money" makes it even worse.

Again...no flames, please. Just my opinion.

What is he playing now?

Dan Schulz (TubaTinker) has an Olds O-99 for sale for only $450. Buy that, it's too cheap to pass up. Damn good deal for a decent student instrument. If he's not serious about going to school for music (and there's nothing wrong with that), this is a cheap entry level tuba that allows him to own something on his own. I owned one for a few years as my first self-owned tuba, and it was surprisingly good.

The kid went to his upcoming HS band director and the school either hasn't been forthcoming on a decent instrument, or he wants to avoid carrying one back and forth every day. He was playing on a middle school owned Yamaha 621 - nice horn actually, but he wants a larger, band horn, and he has to give it back. I told him to talk with the HS director and get a horn for the summer from him and that we could be more patient as was suggested. As to why he wants his own, I think it is a good investment as long as he buys a reputable horn. He could play it all through college and if he wants to sell it one day, it shouldn't rteally lose any value if it is properly cared for. I AM recommending a used horn, but a good name brand. Heck, I just bought this 5 year old 186 for $1500 and it must be worth that, even in this market. Todd, I don't feel bashed, and I didn't recommend he buy anything - his Dad asked me to start looking for him. Maybe he is more serious about his playing than I had thought? By the way, no 3 valve horns, as I have a student I am retraining to use a fourth valve after a year of not. They should all have a fourth by middle school, if not earlier, IMHO.

vintage7512 wrote:The kid went to his upcoming HS band director and the school either hasn't been forthcoming on a decent instrument, or he wants to avoid carrying one back and forth every day. He was playing on a middle school owned Yamaha 621 - nice horn actually, but he wants a larger, band horn, and he has to give it back. I told him to talk with the HS director and get a horn for the summer from him and that we could be more patient as was suggested. As to why he wants his own, I think it is a good investment as long as he buys a reputable horn. He could play it all through college and if he wants to sell it one day, it shouldn't rteally lose any value if it is properly cared for. I AM recommending a used horn, but a good name brand. Heck, I just bought this 5 year old 186 for $1500 and it must be worth that, even in this market. Todd, I don't feel bashed, and I didn't recommend he buy anything - his Dad asked me to start looking for him. Maybe he is more serious about his playing than I had thought? By the way, no 3 valve horns, as I have a student I am retraining to use a fourth valve after a year of not. They should all have a fourth by middle school, if not earlier, IMHO.

I wouldn't count on finding many 5 year old Miraphones for $1500. That's a giveaway!

Maybe an old VMI or some other Communist-era European tuba might be a good option here. I know you're a short drive from BBC, so that is always a good starting point. I personally don't like the Chinese tubas (not because of how they play), but I hear Dave has some nice ones. The St. Pete tubas are alright too, if he can try one to form an opinion about it.

I am seeing some Cerveny's in the under $2000 range - do these play well? Never tried one myself. I have liked every VMI I have played (3301,2 and briefly on a 101) - are the Cerveny's similar?

The VMI 2103 or 103 is a good all around tuba. They are a bit pricey now new but used examples in good condition are a great value.

I also don't think you could go wrong with a King 2341, either "old" or "new" style. Again, a brand new King may be expensive but used versions often come up at decent prices, even the "new style" versions.

You say the kid is advancing well for his age. This to me indicates committment on his part. Given that, he should have his own horn.

From what you have all said - it should still be a BBb and not a CC, right? 9th grader, who is serious about his playing, but too young yet to be committed to music as a career. Heading up to the BBC thursday, I think, but they don't have a lot of BBb's - mostly CC. I agree with whoever said he should want to earn it himself and maybe stay with a school horn for now, but if his folks want him to have a better horn, I am not going to stand in their way! Just makes my work easier!

vintage7512 wrote:From what you have all said - it should still be a BBb and not a CC, right? 9th grader, who is serious about his playing, but too young yet to be committed to music as a career. Heading up to the BBC thursday, I think, but they don't have a lot of BBb's - mostly CC. I agree with whoever said he should want to earn it himself and maybe stay with a school horn for now, but if his folks want him to have a better horn, I am not going to stand in their way! Just makes my work easier!

I say go for the best playing horn you can find in the price range, and then deal with the fingerings and key issue. He's a kid, and kids pick up stuff really quickly. He'll have all summer to learn it.

You mean play all the horns (CC and BBb) and whichever fits him best, go with it and teach the fingerings? I guess I never thought of that - makes a lot of sense. I assumed I needed to pick a key first, then find a horn in that key.

vintage7512 wrote:You mean play all the horns (CC and BBb) and whichever fits him best, go with it and teach the fingerings? I guess I never thought of that - makes a lot of sense. I assumed I needed to pick a key first, then find a horn in that key.

I'm no pro, nor a teacher, but that's what I always think for me. He's a kid, and could either take it by the horns and pick it up quickly, or get discouraged and say "this is stupid I quit." I think a new tuba is a good time to appreciate something new, feel a good amount of encouragement by the investment from your parents, and be a little humbled to need time to learn it. I dunno, that's just me. I'm not a band director in Bb.

What bloke said. I played a 2341 in high school, mid '70's vintage with detachable bell. They are, bar none, the best tuba for high school band out there. Period.

In my (very) amature opinion:

He should try to get a decient Chinese CC Tuba. From what everyone says they are quite cheap. If they are at prices as low as "goodgigs" says then he could get a horn that had 4 (5?) valves and is in a different key than everyone else's (add to the "special factor"). If they do play almost as well as the tubas they are copying then getting a big 4/4 or even a 5/4 that is based of a fairly good horn would be possible that would be great to use through college if he decided to do so.

I have my own PT-606p that my parents bought for me and having my own horn is great. I enjoy practicing more so, I do it much more and I take the time to clean my horn when needed and take very good care of it. It may become a motivating factor for him in the future at least in High School, if he didnt decide to even minor in music, and it can always be sold!

Of course when I got my horn as a Junior I had already begun taking lessons at Butler Unv. and was planning on going there for Music Performance with scholarships, and have wonderful parents.

Maybe a Zeiss Master Modelle? They are decent enough for a HS kid. Not many around, but pretty cheap when they are.

For someone to is entering the 9th grade and has no intention of going into music as a career, a CC tuba is a terrible mistake, IMHO.

iiipopes wrote:What bloke said. I played a 2341 in high school, mid '70's vintage with detachable bell. They are, bar none, the best tuba for high school band out there. Period.

I think it's kind of ignorant to think that any one tuba is the best for all highschool tubists. I have played in several highschool honor and "all-star" bands over the past several years and the most popular tubas amongst the top players have been Miraphone 1291 and 1292's (I play a 1292 and love it), PT 606's are also popular among good highschool players. All these are in CC if that means anything. If the kid can afford one of these it might be better than other horns already suggested as they are larger and have 5 valves. If he or she is playing in a youth orchestra these would be a better way to go IMO, but if he's just playing in a band maybe not. Finances can also be an issue if he or she isn't looking to go into music one of these horns purchased new is probably too much of an investment (but if they can afford it why not!). The 1292 is a great horn though, I played it in a public highschool band for a year and it sounded great.

cjk wrote:For someone to is entering the 9th grade and has no intention of going into music as a career, a CC tuba is a terrible mistake, IMHO.

Why do you think that? Just curious.

The point about 2341's is that a decent 2341 isn't going to hold most people back (it may not even hold *you* back ). And for a lot of kids, that's all they need until they determine if they want/need more. Just that simple.

Reminds me of a part in the movie Lean on Me, something like this...

Kid: Mr. Clark, we need new weights.
Mr. Clark: What's wrong with the ones you have?
Kid: They're all dirty and old.
Mr. Clark: Are they heavy?

There are some great HS players, I'm sure. And yes, they should have the best equipment they can afford (or otherwise be provided). About 15 years ago, the "best" high school horn I encountered in all of high school and my county/region/local univ honor bands was a Cerveny Piggy, and second place was a Karl Zeiss BBb tuba. There *might* have been a Miraphone 186, but I'm not sure. The rest of us played our school issued Yamaha 3-valve top action tubas. And for whatever it means (which again is nothing), those fancy horn kids were always the last ones to make the audition cut (the lowest chairs).

I think you understand these things, don't get me wrong. But the fact that those are in CC is probably because their teacher (*big factor here*) suggested or encouraged it.

Is there still the old "ed majors on BBb, performance majors on CC" joke out there? The joke's on all of us, it doesn't matter at all! I only play CC because the university-owned tuba I was able to use was a CC!

tubainty wrote:

cjk wrote:For someone to is entering the 9th grade and has no intention of going into music as a career, a CC tuba is a terrible mistake, IMHO.

Why do you think that? Just curious.

Why do you think otherwise?

If he has no intention of going into music as a career, what benefit is it to the lad if he learns CC tuba fingerings? What will he actually gain?

CC tubas are more expensive than their BBb counterparts. CC tubas need 5 valves to effectively cover the lower range of "typical" band works. A BBb tuba covers this fine with only 4 valves.

My parents bought me a CC tuba when I was 15. I did not major in music. I don't regret either one. I do not think having a CC tuba made me a better tuba player. Practicing on my own tuba did.


Christian

cjk wrote:Why do you think otherwise?

When I switched to CC I did it mostly because my teachers suggested it, rather they told I'd have a tough time being successful as a musician playing a BBb. But really I thought my sound on the CC was way more focused on than on the BBb. Perhaps that was the quality of the horn, perhaps it was phycological who knows( I certainly don't). But if the kid is dedicated learning fingerings should be no problem at all, it took me only about three weeks to switch to CC when I was only 15 and then about 5 days to become proficient on F at 16. The quality of the instrument is likely more important than the key that it's in.

bort wrote:There are some great HS players, I'm sure. And yes, they should have the best equipment they can afford (or otherwise be provided). About 15 years ago, the "best" high school horn I encountered in all of high school and my county/region/local univ honor bands was a Cerveny Piggy, and second place was a Karl Zeiss BBb tuba. There *might* have been a Miraphone 186, but I'm not sure. The rest of us played our school issued Yamaha 3-valve top action tubas. And for whatever it means (which again is nothing), those fancy horn kids were always the last ones to make the audition cut (the lowest chairs).

I played next to a kid for a little while who was playing a Cervany Piggy and it was NOT a quality instrument. It overblew way too easy and had terrible intonation. But I hear these tubas are quite inconsistent so I'm sure finding a great one is just as easy as finding a crap one, I'd suggest the kid try any tuba he before purchase.

About kids with good equipment being last I've found the opposite to be true, I've had better equipment than most of the other tubists I play with and I have been first or second in every band I've ever played in (this is probably very little to do with the horn and more to do with the time I've put in in the practice room).

The OP specified in his second post in this thread that the student wanted his own horn to avoid having to carry one back and forth to school. Therefore, he'll have to get a horn in the same key as his horn available at school. I would think that this might mean he has to get a BBb, but I suppose that some schools have both BBb and CC horns.