After the purchase of the Schiller I have performed in about 5 concerts and about 10 practices. Due to deaths of fellow players, I am the only Tuba player in each group. .
you must have really wanted first chair !!!
Good luck with the new horn , German company- maybe
Chinese made - definately
Good player - maybe
great value - definately
I hate the way Jim Laabs Music, whose imprint "Schiller" is, markets them. They only raise people's doubts with their obvious deceptions (such as that it's a German company).
It's a perfectly serviceable instrument. I'm so satisfied that I'm buying another Jinbao, the F (http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/29068 ... _Tuba.html" target="_blank), without the idiotic "Schiller" imprint. But the whole idea that there is such a company as Schiller in Germany, and all the BS about "the American Tuba Sound", etc., etc, just ticks me off. It takes away from what is otherwise a quite respectable instrument.
I wrote a big long post on this a while back, but I've never posted the whole thing, just snippets. Maybe this is a good time and place for it:
After reading every post on this board (and indeed every post I can find anywhere on the web) about "Schiller" tubas, then becoming the owner of one (the "Schillbrunner"), I've been thinking about them a lot. I think they have an image problem that does not seem to be justified by the tubas themselves.
Maybe I'm wrong, but in my opinion the main thing that makes "Schiller" instruments seem questionable is not what they are, but the way they are marketed. The marketing raises too many questions.
It seems to me that every issue other than marketing has found a satisfactory answer in the discussion of these tubas here and elsewhere. Others have shown that the fact they're copies is not really an issue: plenty of tubas no one has a problem with are copies of others. Plenty of owners are satisfied with workmanship and playability, though some are not. That isn't unique to these tubas, though. Not every tuba of whatever brand or maker gets along with every player. Parts may or may not be an issue, but has anyone tried to get a screw for a Miraphone linkage? (Three months.) They are not made in America? And Hirsbrunners and Miraphones are?
Thus, most of the issues go away on examination.
The real issue, I think, is the backstory that's been carpentered up around the "Schiller" brand. If there ever was such an instrument maker as Gustav Schiller in the C18 (which I doubt), neither he nor his (imaginary) successors in business, if he had any, seem to have had anything to do with these tubas or their makers, and Jim Laabs Music, the creator and owner of the brand, does not actually claim that they did. They tell this little story and leave you to draw your own conclusions. They put "Frankfurt, Germany" on the bell and the case. They mention old Gustav and the city of Frankfurt allusively. You only have to think about it for a moment to realize the allusions aren't relevant. The idea that any meaningful work on these horns is done in Germany looks to my eye like plain fiction. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
And why suggest they sound like American tubas? They sound, of course, like the German-style tubas they are. (If you want an American sound, copy a York. Even other American companies do that, and have for decades.) In fact, I think they do have some American style horns.
Serious people read the "Schiller" web site and think that if the horns have to be propped up in this romantic and probably fictional setting to sell them, there must be something wrong with them as musical instruments. And surely one has to ask oneself, fairly or unfairly, if the seller has gone to the trouble to spin this tall tale, what else that they tell you would it be wise to question? It raises an issue of trust.
Isn't the plain truth that Schiller Instruments is based in Wisconsin, in the Jim Laabs music store? A whois search shows that the web address schillerinstruments.com is owned by Jim Laabs Music. It's obvious that the horns are bought from Jinbao in China, who wholesales the same instruments etched with different brands to other retailers. Why would it not be cleaner just to say up front that Schiller is Jim Laabs Music's house brand, and openly compete on price with Miraphone and Hirsbrunner (and whoever they copy the other instruments from, trumpets and oboes and what have you), as well as with other sellers of these same instruments, such as M & M?
And give these things real model numbers or names. What "American heritage" is there in a Chinese copy of a Swiss instrument with German characteristics sold under a borrowed (or made up) German name? Only the fact that it's marketed to Americans, apparently. Why can't the "Schillbrunner" be the Schiller 787, or the 210L (which is what Jinbao calls it), or something straightforward like that?
I wish they'd get rid of all the unseemly and almost certainly fictitious blather about the city of Frankfurt and Gustav Schiller, and the nonsense of attributing "the American tuba sound" to German-style horns, apparently to patronize Americans who may be open to a patriotic appeal. All this is unnecessary because the tubas stand up well enough on their own, and raises the question, at least initially and probably unfairly, whether it would be wise to send these people money.
Why not just be straight about what they are? They're nothing to be ashamed of when you take them at face value.
In short, I am delighted to buy Jinbao tubas all day long, but I personally wouldn't dream of buying one from Jim Laabs Music. (I'm the second owner of the one I've got already.) As Jinbao products, they're great. But I don't trust Laabs at all. They put what I think is way too much imagination into their marketing.
Last edited by Michael Bush on Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
talleyrand wrote:I wrote a big long post on this a while back, but I've never posted the whole thing, just snippets. Maybe this is a good time and place for it: ...... Parts may or may not be an issue, but has anyone tried to get a screw for a Miraphone linkage? (Three months.) .....
I agree with you that the crummy marketing that's being done by Laab's Music is damaging the reputation of everyone who sells JinBao tubas.
But.... three months to get a screw for a Miraphone? You must have been trying the wrong sources.
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker" http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
talleyrand wrote:I wrote a big long post on this a while back, but I've never posted the whole thing, just snippets. Maybe this is a good time and place for it: ...... Parts may or may not be an issue, but has anyone tried to get a screw for a Miraphone linkage? (Three months.) .....
I agree with you that the crummy marketing that's being done by Laab's Music is damaging the reputation of everyone who sells JinBao tubas.
But.... three months to get a screw for a Miraphone? You must have been trying the wrong sources.
Well, that may be. But I went through my local guy, and that's the time it took. Actually, it turns out that Apple Computer uses the same screw (with a different head) on the MacBook Pro. So I wasn't without the use of that valve the whole time.
talleyrand wrote:
The real issue, I think, is the backstory that's been carpentered up around the "Schiller" brand. If there ever was such an instrument maker as Gustav Schiller in the C18 (which I doubt), neither he nor his (imaginary) successors in business, if he had any, seem to have had anything to do with these tubas or their makers, and Jim Laabs Music, the creator and owner of the brand, does not actually claim that they did. They tell this little story and leave you to draw your own conclusions. They put "Frankfurt, Germany" on the bell and the case. They mention old Gustav and the city of Frankfurt allusively. You only have to think about it for a moment to realize the allusions aren't relevant. The idea that any meaningful work on these horns is done in Germany looks to my eye like plain fiction. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't care for the way Jim Laabs use this Schiller Instruments fiction for marketing. Neither do I care for M&M stamping "M&M USA" on their instruments...its totally misleading--BUT its all legal.
We all know why they do it--these horns are aimed at people who want an affordable horn but have issues buying Chinese tubas with "Made in China" stamped on them (and tend to be not very knowledgeable about tubas). I ignore the Schiller and M&M USA bit....its not aimed at me but I do know these are well made instruments and they sound great. I recently purchase the Schiller 1291 clone from Jim Laabs (my 3rd tuba from them)--very pleased once again with the construction and finish...and blows VERY well....great tone quality and puts out some serious volume (I got the dreaded "left hand" a few times in rehearsal).
Hopefully Laabs and M&M will eventually stop resorting to these kind of tactics to market their horns.
JJ
Jerry Johnson
Wessex Kaiser BBb aka "Willie"
Wessex Luzern BBb aka "Otto"
Lone Star Symphonic Band
The Prevailing Winds
I recently purchased a Schillbrunner from Jim Laabs. It arrived damaged by the shipping company. Jim Laab's provided a partial refund which adequately covers the repairs. I believe they are still trying to get compensated by the shipping company.
I've only played the tuba with the first 2 valves because 3 and 4 are damaged but it sounded pretty good to me, a euph player. I purchased the tuba for our Community Band. I plan to rent it to a another member as cheaply as I can. Our band allows beginners and we could use more tubas. For a new member thinking of joining our band, renting a 3/4 sized jupitar tuba at our local music store cost a little over 100 dollars per month. I figure an adult is going to be pretty safe with a tuba and the Shillbrunner will still play and have some value ten years from now. So, I think be able to clobber the 100 dollars a month. I plan to do the same with other instruments like a bari sax, bass clarinet, bassoon... the problem when you have a band with alot of beginners you get a lot of people playing based on economics. We had 70 people show up to our first ever rehearsal (40 % beginners) and there were 13 who ended up playing the alto sax. no bari saxes one tenor. Lower brass is three trombones and 1 euphonium. We sit behind the alto wall. So I'm glad these chinese tubas are cheap enough for me to buy one like this, the only problem is they make some pretty good cheap alto saxes too.
Thanks Jerry! I wrote Labbs and they have one coming in today in fact. Not sure if I will jump on it or not and I might buy from M&M as the customer service is better....but at least now I know that they have not dropped them.
Do you, (or anyone) have any idea what the " Elite 3V Bb " Tuba is a copy of? A Besson perhaps? And I cant figure out the Double BB model either!
With all this talk about the quality of the chinese horns ..do you think this will make all the other horns made in japan germany and switzerland and usa drop there prices?? or like with other things the more popular the higher the price is going to be??
bigbob wrote:With all this talk about the quality of the chinese horns ..do you think this will make all the other horns made in japan germany and switzerland and usa drop there prices?? or like with other things the more popular the higher the price is going to be??
The same thing will happen here as did with the automotive industry in the 60's/70's....
Asian competition will force other manufacturers to pay attention to their 'value for the dollar'. The Asian products will get better but their prices will also go up. Precision-lapped slide tubing ain't cheap! At the moment... THAT's something that the Asian products DO NOT have.
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker" http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
bigbob wrote:With all this talk about the quality of the chinese horns ..do you think this will make all the other horns made in japan germany and switzerland and usa drop there prices?? or like with other things the more popular the higher the price is going to be??
The same thing will happen here as did with the automotive industry in the 60's/70's....
Asian competition will force other manufacturers to pay attention to their 'value for the dollar'. The Asian products will get better but their prices will also go up. Precision-lapped slide tubing ain't cheap! At the moment... THAT's something that the Asian products DO NOT have.
I must have been lucky, Tinker. The slides on my Schiller five rotor CC were silky smooth right out of the box.
bigbob wrote:With all this talk about the quality of the chinese horns ..do you think this will make all the other horns made in japan germany and switzerland and usa drop there prices?? or like with other things the more popular the higher the price is going to be??
The same thing will happen here as did with the automotive industry in the 60's/70's....
Asian competition will force other manufacturers to pay attention to their 'value for the dollar'. The Asian products will get better but their prices will also go up. Precision-lapped slide tubing ain't cheap! At the moment... THAT's something that the Asian products DO NOT have.
I must have been lucky, Tinker. The slides on my Schiller five rotor CC were silky smooth right out of the box.
Same here. I wasn't going to say anything, because TT has much more lore than I do. But the slides on my Schillbrunner don't give up anything to the 186 I was using before.
bigbob wrote:With all this talk about the quality of the chinese horns ..do you think this will make all the other horns made in japan germany and switzerland and usa drop there prices?? or like with other things the more popular the higher the price is going to be??
The same thing will happen here as did with the automotive industry in the 60's/70's....
Asian competition will force other manufacturers to pay attention to their 'value for the dollar'. The Asian products will get better but their prices will also go up. Precision-lapped slide tubing ain't cheap! At the moment... THAT's something that the Asian products DO NOT have.
I must have been lucky, Tinker. The slides on my Schiller five rotor CC were silky smooth right out of the box.
Don't know about how lucky you and tallyrand are but the slides on my 1291 'clone' certainly don't match the 'slick-ness' of those on my REAL 1291. Maybe the Asians are REALLY paying attention to the posts here on TubeNet. That's was it's all about.... we've been telling 'em what we expect and apparently it's beginning to happen.
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker" http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
bigbob wrote:With all this talk about the quality of the chinese horns ..do you think this will make all the other horns made in japan germany and switzerland and usa drop there prices?? or like with other things the more popular the higher the price is going to be??
Workers there are starting to demand better wages and working conditions. They recently announced that they are going to revalue the currency which will make their stuff more expensive to us and our stuff cheaper to them. Plus transportation charges will inevitably go up for them on both the raw material side and final product side as the world wide economy eventually starts to pick up steam coupled with the decline in oil output from the Gulf debacle and shutdown of deep well drilling. So you can count on the prices to probably go up to US buyer for Chinese stuff. Whether or not other non-Chinese makers drop or stay the same or increase their prices is hard to say. It will be on a product by product basis depending on demand. I think it will drive more innovations/new horns on the non-Chinese side as a way to differentiate the product and justify the higher premium so that is probably good for tubists. It is easier/cheaper/safer/more predictable returns/more volume to knock-off horns so I doubt we will see much innovation on the Chinese side anytime soon. Europeans are much more likely to impose tariffs to protect their domestic industries than the US is and I would suspect that if Chinese horns start to threaten domestic manufacturers we might see that crop up. I wonder if the Chinese horns are showing up in numbers over there like they are in the US?
TubaTinker wrote:
Don't know about how lucky you and tallyrand are but the slides on my 1291 'clone' certainly don't match the 'slick-ness' of those on my REAL 1291. Maybe the Asians are REALLY paying attention to the posts here on TubeNet. That's was it's all about.... we've been telling 'em what we expect and apparently it's beginning to happen.
I would agree that the Asians are paying attention and making the adjustments--the slides on my 1291 clone are uber slick. They are slowly closing the quality gap.
JJ
Jerry Johnson
Wessex Kaiser BBb aka "Willie"
Wessex Luzern BBb aka "Otto"
Lone Star Symphonic Band
The Prevailing Winds
