TubeNet

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:00 am**

Morning all!
Over the years Ive have played with a few brass bands, ( Tenor horn and Euph) but never Tuba, Eventually Im thinking of jumping back in, and so I got to thinking....... What are tubas of choice for brass band playing? I know Besson is sort of "the" sound and that in England Compensating models are often used. But what about here? for the Bb, are three valves enough? Just wanting to poll the collective tuba wisdom~
Craig

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:26 am**

There is one model of EEb, and I forget if it is the 980 or 981, which has the intermediate 17 inch bell to go with the 19 inch BBb.

In addition to Besson, the "classic" 3+1 compensating layout is also made by York, Yamaha, Miraphone, Willson, and possibly a couple others. The brass band community is rather insular, so as bloke says, you are better off showing up with something that looks the part rather than, say, a 186.

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:27 am**

For BBb tuba I think you will definitely need 4 valves. Those parts often go down into the 4th valve register, so a BBb horn with a solid 4th valve register is needed for the brass band literature. Sometimes the parts split into octaves, so a band could get by with only one monster BBb to cover the lowest parts.

As for Eb both I and my partner use compensator Ebs, I have an old Boosey & Hawkes and my partner has a Besson 983. The 983 especially seems to be a great horn for the Eb parts in the brass band.

ken k

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:39 am**

ken k wrote:For BBb tuba I think you will definitely need 4 valves. Those parts often go down into the 4th valve register, so a BBb horn with a solid 4th valve register is needed for the brass band literature. Sometimes the parts split into octaves, so a band could get by with only one monster BBb to cover the lowest parts.

As for Eb both I and my partner use compensator Ebs, I have an old Boosey & Hawkes and my partner has a Besson 983. The 983 especially seems to be a great horn for the Eb parts in the brass band.

ken k

I second that. One of the pieces I did in brass band (I forget which one) called for pedal C, fingered 1234. 't'would have been difficult with a three-banger.

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:13 pm**

The tradition was for the band's instruments to be purchased by their sponsor in "sets". The competition brass band always has two EE-flats and two BB-flats, usually Boosey & Hawkes/Besson, etc. The theory seems to be that having a set of instruments made by one manufacturer lends itself to that homogenous sound.

British tuba players with potential are usually moved to the e-flats. The parts are not divisi octave parts; the more more florid stuff gets put on the e-flats as a rule. Another theory is that the parts in those bands are all transposed (except for the bass trombone) so that as a young man you start out on cornet, and as your teeth loosen and fall out you work your way down switching horns until you play BBb tuba in your old age - and never have to learn new fingerings. Until recently being a dentist in Great Britain could be a lonely profession; forget orthodonistry.

The Besson 3+1 e-flat was and is the the gold standard; the compensating arrangements gets them well in tune. I have always regarded the BBb compensating Bessons as one of the most exasperating horns in the world, but that stuffy sound is charateristic of the "British Brass Band" concept. The valves are way too long, never keep up the passagework expected of the player, and the compenstating tubing makes you play the note a day before you wish to hear it sound. I owned two of 'em, because I got hooked on that foggy sound. The clanking undependable valves and stuffiness made me give up the idea. Tony Price, one of the finest (NYC) musicians I know who plays the tuba owns a Besson BBb and a Besson F - and plays his *** off on both - has for years.

The finest EEb player I ever heard was John Fletcher - but when he needed big horn (CC or BBb), it wasn't the Besson.

I would prefer to hear an American Brass Band of matched American-made instruments with open bore - and lose the compensating business entirely.

Of course, I want somebody to start making Martin tubas again, too.

Mark Heter

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:08 pm**

Euphistuba wrote: What are tubas of choice for brass band playing? I know Besson is sort of "the" sound and that in England Compensating models are often used. But what about here?

iiipopes wrote:In addition to Besson, the "classic" 3+1 compensating layout is also made by York, Yamaha, Miraphone, Willson, and possibly a couple others. The brass band community is rather insular, so as bloke says, you are better off showing up with something that looks the part rather than, say, a 186.

These two statements best fit my experience. Over the past year I subbed with a reputable Brass Band in which I was required to pick up a BBb tuba (after 5 years having only played CC/EEb). Originally I was supposed to use The besson 3+1 tuba, but my teacher actually sent me off with a Yamaha 3+1 because it was easier to play in tune in a short amount of time. Neither BBb was particularly to my liking, but I think a big part of it was my having played a very open CC horn, then going to a stuffy BBb. 4 valves is definitely a must as both tubists may go down given how the EEb tuba part is written.

Uncle Markie wrote:The tradition was for the band's instruments to be purchased by their sponsor in "sets". The competition brass band always has two EE-flats and two BB-flats, usually Boosey & Hawkes/Besson, etc. The theory seems to be that having a set of instruments made by one manufacturer lends itself to that homogenous sound.

And if you look at Brass Band writing, scales will sometimes be traded through the entire ensemble to make a cascading effect (ESPECIALLY in contest pieces) as the scale progresses, so the idea of a homogenous sound is especially important.

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:51 pm**

EuphisTuba, I hope you pursue your brass band bug. It was the most fun and challenging music I have ever played... no exceptions.

Whether you play Besson or not is not really important. It is more important that you blend with the rest of the tubas. I did develop two opinions:

1 - the huge American BBb doesn't have enough 'point' to the sound to be effective in the most challenging brass band music. Too tubby. The small American BBb doesn't have enough weight to anchor the bottom part. You should consider 4 valves essential.

I have heard the Brass Band of Battle Creek on several occassions. The last time, they had added an honest to goodness British BBb player with a Besson BBb (994?). The difference was AMAZING. I hate playing Besson BBb's but loved hearing it played.

Some CC tubas work okay.

2 - the top part should be played by an Eb tuba. Most F tubas are too light. I'm partial to the Besson 983 "Sheridan" model. Marty Erickson sounds outstanding on his Willson Eb in the BBBC.

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:35 am**

Brass Bands are about the only thing I would dare express a solid opinion about on this board, having played at the highest level for 20 years or so in the UK. Anything posted by me on other topics is probably dubious!

That said, a "traditional" compensator is the way forward if you want to play the music as intended, more easily, especially the more modern test pieces/major works.

I've personally tried BBb rotary and piston tubas not in our "tradition" and found them very unwieldy in a band situation, I've even owned a 4 valve rotary BBb and given it a decent chance in my band, to no avail. The sound doesn't work, and they are, as previously stated, too "tubby". After trying a test piece using a pinky 4th valve, it got sold. I was keen for it to work, but it just didn't.

Having recently shared a stage with the Natural State Brass Band (Arkansas) on their UK tour, they were using 2 Yam 641's, A Hirsbrunner CC, an EEb and a Hirsbrunner F. All good players, nothing "wrong", but certainly not "right" in the normal band repertoire!

Perhaps contact some of them? At least one of them (John Pearson?) tried my LMI 3+1 compensator and was blown away by it. I tried his 641 and wouldn't dare to try and use it for ANYTHING in comparison. They will have sat in with at least 12 more UK "amateur" players over the week they were here, as well as hearing many top bands on the contest platform and may be great people to ask having had recent experiences!

Robin Sisk, John Pearson and Rico Belotti are 3 tubists I know were on the tour, don't know if they are on here though?

FYI, Battle Creek's BBb 994 player was Dean Morley, ex Fodens, Desford, Grimethorpe etc player, now resident in the Southern Hemisphere! One of the best exponents of Brass Band BBb playing.

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:00 am**

Uncle Markie wrote:

Another theory is that the parts in those bands are all transposed (except for the bass trombone) so that as a young man you start out on cornet, and as your teeth loosen and fall out you work your way down switching horns until you play BBb tuba in your old age.

Ah jeez!! Is that what I got to look forward to?

Rick (who started on cornet 50 yrs ago)

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:52 am**

Andy,

Interesting post! What is your take on the LMI compared to the 1976 Imperial that you used to play in the BBBs?

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:59 am**

royjohn wrote:Andy,

Interesting post! What is your take on the LMI compared to the 1976 Imperial that you used to play in the BBBs?

I still use the Imperial for everything BUT Brass bands. The LMI is a a better variant of the modern York or Besson, and not great for smaller groups or Orchestras etc, but has a huge, if a little too "thick", sound, more suited to Brass Bands. The Imperial can't really get the volume through in the biggest of Bands, but is generally more in tune than any of the more modern compensators, and definitely has the agility for everything else I personally need to do. It's also fine for the normal Brass Band stuff, just not the big boys!

Although saying that, I've played the Imperial with both Faireys and Fodens recently, so maybe it's just a little easier on the LMI?

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:04 am**

Hi Euphistuba

I've played in brass bands in Australia but not at anything like the level AndyCat plays at.
If you play an orchestral sounding BBb next to a player with the real British sound it pretty much clashes. If the BBb section is made up entirely of orchestral sounding players then that can sound alright. It's not the traditional British sound but I don't think you'll get that in America anyway. Americans have a different style of playing - more brassy and straight through the middle of the horn.

I like an orchestral sounding BBb section - it adds definition and clarity to the part and stops the EEb part from dominating and turning the section upside down. I suspect that in American brass bands the whole band will tend to blow straight through the middle of the instrument and be more brass ensemble sounding and less homogenised than a top level British band. In a lot of Australian brass bands the cornet players have a trumpet sound in their heads and that's what they sound like. Once again it's not the traditional brass band sound but trumpety cornets and orchestral sounding tubas go together.

A lot of older music will not go below "bottom" F# (concert E) in the BBb part but more recent music goes right down chromatically to the pedals, sometimes at speed.

The Sovereign BBb is less colourful and less open than an American or German tuba but it can have a lot of weight in the right hands. The amount of sound and the weight of sound a real deal British player makes on one of these instruments is unbelievable when you're sitting next to them.

Regards

Gerard

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:43 am**

In my Brass Band, we have one Yamaha 822F, One Mirafone 186 CC, one Gronitz PCK, one Yamaha large rotary BBb and one Mirafone Bruckner. Sounds good to me!

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:54 pm**

Rick F wrote:Uncle Markie wrote:
Another theory is that the parts in those bands are all transposed (except for the bass trombone) so that as a young man you start out on cornet, and as your teeth loosen and fall out you work your way down switching horns until you play BBb tuba in your old age.
Ah jeez!! Is that what I got to look forward to?

Rick (who started on cornet 50 yrs ago)

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Posted: **Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:40 am**

Thanks to everyone.,..... this is a really helpful discussion. I played for a year with the Princeton Brass Band in NJ, (Tenor Horn) and its because of these amazing players that I found brass band work to be likely the most fun Ive ever had as a musician. It was sitting in front of that wall of tuba sound that was the genesis of my playing tuba!'
Stephen A Allen is the conductor and a fantastic Euphonium player. His constant goal was... "the sound" and we seemed closer to the typical British sound than some American bands I have heard, but Im not sure what tubas those guys were playing. It did strike me that the sound had a weight and roundness that I had not had in a Wind Ensemble experience. But then again, I had never played in a band with four tubas either! Still Im betting that at least two of the horns were Bessons and I think one of the Bb was a turn of the century Conn that had been redone, quite nicely as I recall.

Thanks again, this has been really helpful! Besson here I come! ( not that I had two many doubts)

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