So Low

The bulk of the musical talk
User avatar
bttmbow
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 342
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:04 am
Location: in front of the timpani

Post by bttmbow »

I'm buying it.

CJH
User avatar
ThomasDodd
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:37 am
Location: BFE, Mississippi

Post by ThomasDodd »

tuba4sissies wrote:Oh. Sorry guys, I was not educated that these tubas were keyed differently then a wind instrument is. :oops: But, I didn't learn all my musical stuff from watchin' T.V. So, case closed.
Tubas aren't keyed differently. The music is just written differently. Mostly for historical reasons.

The "key" of a horn is it's root pitch. So for WWs it the based on the tube length with all holes closed. For brass it with no extra tubing added (valved up, slide in). Opening holes (basically) shortens the tube on WWs, raising the pitch. pushiing valves (or extending the slide) adds tubing lowering the pitch. The amount of change is standardized. valve #2 is 1 semitone, #1 is 2 semitones, and #3 is 3 semitones. Each tone hole, as you work your'e way up a WW is 1 semitone. Because of the harmonics of the tube, a brass player only needs the 7 combinations to get a chromatic scale. A WW needs 12 tone holes. The clutches allow 1 finger to control more than one hole, since you don't have enough fingers. Register holes make playing higher otcaves easier, but add even more holes to control. If you change the root pitch, say shorten the horn, everything else changes in to keep the semitone steps correct.

Now what do you call the note fingered with the first valve down? Or on a clarinet with all but the last hole closed? On the brass horn it's 1 whole tone below the open pitch (for thet partial). For the clarinet it's one semitone above the root pitch.

Well, bass clef brass calls it by a name based on frequency. Standqrdized no on the A=440 Hz standard, or concert pitch. So an BBb horn sounds an Ab, a CC horn sounds a Bb, and an Eb horn sounds a Db. For some strange reason, trumpets (and treble clef euphonium) stuck with the names from a C horn when the root pitch was changed, letting the horn transpose the notes for them. So they call the note Bb, regardless of the root pitch of the horn. The same has happened with most (all?) WWs.

I think all horns should be written concert pitch, and the notes called by that name. Like bass clef brass does it. It should be written on the staff correctly too, behaps using octave references to keep the notes more readable. Flutes doe it a lot already. Imaging if a conductor/director could just ask for a Bb chord with the sections playing the root(Bb) third (D) or fith (F) without having to transpose all iof this for the players. Just tell the clarinets to play a D and the saxes to play an F. Noone having to bother with written pitch versus concert pitch, or the direct having to transpose first. Especially for new players, like middle school. Figuring out the horn is bad enough, having to learn 2 names for each note is ridiculous.

It took a while for me to figure out that was why the director kept telling the trumpets to play a a different note that the saxes, and the trombones some other note, even though they sounded the same to me. 20 years later I still don't know why it continues this way, but I'm glad I play concert pitch.
User avatar
corbasse
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:52 pm
Location: Bruges, Belgium

Post by corbasse »

Biggs wrote: ...... Tubas (with the exception of brass band sadists) always play the written pitch.
Well, so far in my very short tuba career I encountered:
G clef transopsed Bb parts (brass band style)
Bass clef transposed Bb parts (written a seventh up..)
Bass clef written as sounding (which my teacher calls "those #%^&^* unreadable American tuba parts... ;))
It's just a matter of what you're used to.
Biggs
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1215
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:01 pm
Location: The Piano Lounge

Post by Biggs »

Biggs wrote:

...... Tubas (with the exception of brass band sadists) always play the written pitch.



Well, so far in my very short tuba career I encountered:
G clef transopsed Bb parts (brass band style)
Bass clef transposed Bb parts (written a seventh up..)
Bass clef written as sounding (which my teacher calls "those #%^&^* unreadable American tuba parts... )
It's just a matter of what you're used to.
Ah yes! I occasionally sit in with my school system's middle school band (I am in HS) and it seems that more and more of our music contains, for the low brass at least, "world parts" that include the 'unreadable' bass clef concert pitch, Bb treble clef, Eb treble clef, and Bb and Eb bass clef transposed a seventh. I have always wondered: what is the advantage of transposing them up a seventh? What sort of player is used to seeing music like this?
User avatar
Chuck(G)
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5676
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:48 am
Location: Not out of the woods yet.
Contact:

Post by Chuck(G) »

Biggs wrote:
Biggs wrote:
Ah yes! I occasionally sit in with my school system's middle school band (I am in HS) and it seems that more and more of our music contains, for the low brass at least, "world parts" that include the 'unreadable' bass clef concert pitch, Bb treble clef, Eb treble clef, and Bb and Eb bass clef transposed a seventh. I have always wondered: what is the advantage of transposing them up a seventh? What sort of player is used to seeing music like this?
Well, a (string) bass player who sits next to me has mentioned that he doesn't understand how we can deal with all of those ledger lines. I remind him that we don't have to read alto clef either...
User avatar
ThomasDodd
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:37 am
Location: BFE, Mississippi

Post by ThomasDodd »

Chuck(G) wrote: Well, a (string) bass player who sits next to me has mentioned that he doesn't understand how we can deal with all of those ledger lines. I remind him that we don't have to read alto clef either...
I wouldn't mind if the parts, especially marching parts, were written an octave higher and marked correctly (8vb?) Some for tromones. They should use the 8va marking a lot more, instead of all those ledger lines.
dopey
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:39 pm

Post by dopey »

umm if u see a "D" u should think Concert C, shouldn't u?
User avatar
corbasse
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:52 pm
Location: Bruges, Belgium

Post by corbasse »

Biggs wrote:
Ah yes! I occasionally sit in with my school system's middle school band (I am in HS) and it seems that more and more of our music contains, for the low brass at least, "world parts" that include the 'unreadable' bass clef concert pitch, Bb treble clef, Eb treble clef, and Bb and Eb bass clef transposed a seventh. I have always wondered: what is the advantage of transposing them up a seventh? What sort of player is used to seeing music like this?
First, I was sleeping: that should of course be up a ninth...
The advantage of the treble cleff parts is discussed extensively before: Every brass instrument except trombone and french horn can read these and use the same fingerings which makes it easy to switch instruments.
It's also historical because since the 2nd half of the 18th century horn and trumpet parts are written in this system. Lasty, the majority of the instruments normal register will fall on the staff, with only one or two ledger lines for the low and high notes.
The advantage of transposing up a ninth? There isn't any... ;) You get rid of the ledger lines at the borrom of the staff, only to get them back at the top! :lol:
User avatar
ThomasDodd
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:37 am
Location: BFE, Mississippi

Post by ThomasDodd »

tuba4sissies wrote: So is brass has same fingers on all instruments(of the instrument: ex: tuba, euphnium, trumpet) but can be tuned to a different key when played in the open fingering?
Basically yes. 2 is down 1/2 step, 1 is down a step, 12 (or 3) is down 1.5, 23 is down 2 steps. Trombones just lengthen the sklide 1/2 step for each position out. The sounded note then is the open note down however many steps. So if open is Bb, 12 is G, but if open is Eb, 12 is C. Rember the open notes are based on the harmonic series (partials) too, so open could be Bb,F,Bb,D,F... or C,G,C,E,G... or Eb, Bb,Eb,G,Bb... or F,C,F,A,C... depending on the horn. The bottom note in that series is what is references as the key.pitch of the horn.

Just trumpet and treble clef euphonium parts are written 1 step higher than they sound, so a written C, sounds Bb. Not sure about (french) horn parts since it's normally 2 horns with a shared mouthpiece and bell (one in F and one in Bb, the thumb switches them). But I don't think it's written in concert pitch either.

The "trick" is if you take a Bb part, finger the notes the same, but do it on a CC horn, the horn will transpose everything up a step*. I guess the same would happen on an Eb horn, transposing up 2.5 steps (a fourth?). F would go up a fith (3.5 steps). Mostly.

*I guess if you are real good you could fight the horn, and lip it down that step. Buit most of us cannot lip that far.
User avatar
Chuck(G)
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5676
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:48 am
Location: Not out of the woods yet.
Contact:

Post by Chuck(G) »

ThomasDodd wrote:Some for tromones. They should use the 8va marking a lot more, instead of all those ledger lines.
Trombones have a ready-made solution. It's called "tenor clef". :)
User avatar
ThomasDodd
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:37 am
Location: BFE, Mississippi

Post by ThomasDodd »

Chuck(G) wrote:
ThomasDodd wrote:Some for tromones. They should use the 8va marking a lot more, instead of all those ledger lines.
Trombones have a ready-made solution. It's called "tenor clef". :)
But how often do you find parts written in those other clefs? Hell most college musicians (not music majors) don't even know about them. I found out about them about a year ago, when looking at some publishing tools. I've been playing music for 290 years, and have never seen those clefs.

But, Hey. Get the music published in those clefs, and I'll learn to read them:)

Tuba could use them to, just written an octave higher than actual, like bass guitar parts tend to be(I think that's right).
User avatar
Chuck(G)
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5676
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:48 am
Location: Not out of the woods yet.
Contact:

Post by Chuck(G) »

ThomasDodd wrote: But how often do you find parts written in those other clefs? Hell most college musicians (not music majors) don't even know about them. I found out about them about a year ago, when looking at some publishing tools. I've been playing music for 290 years, and have never seen those clefs.
Tom, you're a lot older than I thought you were! Were you personally acquainted with Johann Sebastian Bach?
:lol:

Tenor clef trombone parts in my own experience aren't that uncommon. I see it a lot in quintet music in places where the trombone stays above the F staff for protracted periods. Some European composers seem to take tenor as the "normal" clef and resort to bass only when the trombone plays in its lower range.

A good excuse for a trombonist to learn tenor clef is that reading Bb treble clef for brass band is a snap--just add a flat and play as if tenor.
User avatar
ThomasDodd
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:37 am
Location: BFE, Mississippi

Post by ThomasDodd »

Chuck(G) wrote:
ThomasDodd wrote: But how often do you find parts written in those other clefs? Hell most college musicians (not music majors) don't even know about them. I found out about them about a year ago, when looking at some publishing tools. I've been playing music for 290 years, and have never seen those clefs.
Tom, you're a lot older than I thought you were! Were you personally acquainted with Johann Sebastian Bach?
:lol:
Doohh!!! ignore that 9.
Tenor clef trombone parts in my own experience aren't that uncommon. I see it a lot in quintet music in places where the trombone stays above the F staff for protracted periods. Some European composers seem to take tenor as the "normal" clef and resort to bass only when the trombone plays in its lower range.
Never seen those parts. Always an arangement, by someone else, and it in bass clef.
A good excuse for a trombonist to learn tenor clef is that reading Bb treble clef for brass band is a snap--just add a flat and play as if tenor.


Kind of like the trick for sax parts? I don't remember the sign changes, but you play D (4th line) as an F.
User avatar
corbasse
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:52 pm
Location: Bruges, Belgium

Post by corbasse »

ThomasDodd wrote:...... Not sure about (french) horn parts since it's normally 2 horns with a shared mouthpiece and bell (one in F and one in Bb, the thumb switches them). But I don't think it's written in concert pitch either.
Nowadays french horn parts are written in F, wether you play a horn in F or Bb. Band parts are often written in Eb.
Classical orchestra parts are in C, B, Bb, A, Ab, G, F#, F, E, Eb, D, Db, C, B or Bb (the last three an octave down)
User avatar
ThomasDodd
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:37 am
Location: BFE, Mississippi

Post by ThomasDodd »

corbasse wrote:
ThomasDodd wrote:...... Not sure about (french) horn parts since it's normally 2 horns with a shared mouthpiece and bell (one in F and one in Bb, the thumb switches them). But I don't think it's written in concert pitch either.
Nowadays french horn parts are written in F, wether you play a horn in F or Bb. Band parts are often written in Eb.
By band parts, do you mean brass band parts? (as opposed to the horn parts in an arangement for "band", ie. no strings)

So if I you are playing on a Bb horn, you have to transpose yourself? Same for the other keys?

What a mess. Might as well still be playing valveless instruments in different keys w/wo a few spare crooks:)
Mark

Post by Mark »

ThomasDodd wrote:But how often do you find parts written in those other clefs?
The guys sitting to my right in the Symphony, including the bass trombone, regularly have parts with tenor clef.
User avatar
corbasse
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:52 pm
Location: Bruges, Belgium

Post by corbasse »

ThomasDodd wrote: By band parts, do you mean brass band parts? (as opposed to the horn parts in an arangement for "band", ie. no strings)

So if I you are playing on a Bb horn, you have to transpose yourself? Same for the other keys?

What a mess. Might as well still be playing valveless instruments in different keys w/wo a few spare crooks:)

-By band parts I mean "without strings". At least here in Europe most band music has horn parts in Eb and F, but older arrangements only have Eb parts so every horn player learns to transpose in Eb very early in his/her career.

-Similar to U.S. players switching Eb/BBb/F/CC tuba, you learn a second set of fingerings. Mixing F/Bb fingerings is done according to taste, preference and local custom.

-That's what I used to do for a living ;)
Post Reply