How out of tune with a mute?

[mdc2d]

Quick question, a chamber group here at school is performing Fisher Tull's Nonet I put my Stonelined metal straight mute in, and had to pull my main tuning slide out like 3 inches!! I knew when trumpets and bones put in mutes they had to pull out, but should it be this far? Bigger the instrument the more sharp? I thought maybe the mute wasn't fitting right in the bell. I'm playing on a Gronitz PCM. Thanks! Matt C.

[Leland]

It's more like, "The bigger the instrument, the more distance you have to pull the slide to equal the same percentage change in length." Say that a trombone has to move 1-1/2 inches to move 40 cents on a tuner; a BBb tuba's slide would have to move double that distance for the same 40 cents.

Different mutes cause different intonation problems, too. My college had bought a pair of those same aluminum Humes & Berg mutes, and to make the intonation closer, I cut out a ring of heavy paper (mine was from a manila folder; cardboard would work, too) and taped it over the end.

I experimented with different diameters of the inner hole. The outer diameter was the same, of course, since it extended to the edge of the mute's end hole. I threw together three different versions, and while one worked best for my tuba, a different size worked best for the other player's tuba.

I don't know the physics involved, but if you partially close off the hole at the narrow end a bit, you can change the intonation of the mute-tuba combo.

[ThomasDodd]

I don't know the physics involved, but if you partially close off the hole at the narrow end a bit, you can change the intonation of the mute-tuba combo.

I wonder if anyone's looked at this from the physics side. I've red some generaly stuff on the physics of brass, and a lot on trumpets. I even saw something on stopping a (french) horn.

Time to google....

[corbasse]

Looking for this? http://www.well.com/user/smalin/hornstop.htm

I don't know about tuba mutes, but most french horn mutes I have seen have a system for tuning them. Mostly a cardboard tube which you can slide up and down inside the mute. Get a tuner, find the right spot for the tube, and you're in tune! (more or less )

[tubacdk]

I've got a piece of aluminum vent tubing that fits perfectly in my H&B mute to adjust the pitch, but I gave up on using it. It worked really well for adjusting the pitch, but I was unhappy with the resultant change in tone. When I didn't have the tube in there the mute gave the tone a nice buzz, but with the tube the buzz was less pronounced. So I've gotten used to compensating for the pitch on the other end (pulling the slide or doing flatter fingerings) and I'm happier with the result. The whole reason I bought the H&B mute is cuz the tone best matched the other brasses with their metal mutes. Tuning the mute with the tube was undoing the reason I spent more money on that mute.

-ck

[Leland]

When I didn't have the tube in there the mute gave the tone a nice buzz, but with the tube the buzz was less pronounced.

Yeah, that was definitely the drawback once I had modified our own H&B mutes. The sound just wasn't as metallic and buzzy.

I now own an NP Griffith mute which tunes well and has a warmer buzz to its sound. It does seem to work well musically, though.

[Tom]

I don't know about tuba mutes, but most french horn mutes I have seen have a system for tuning them. Mostly a cardboard tube which you can slide up and down inside the mute. Get a tuner, find the right spot for the tube, and you're in tune! (more or less )

TrumCor has a line of tuba mutes with the adjustable "tuning tube" in them. Really nice mutes...just expensive.

[crbarnes]

OK, so I went to the local Michael's (craft store) and bought a roll of cork about 1/8" thick or so and about 18" x 4' (all I could find) . Then I cut a few strips the width of the current ones on the mute and taped them in place and experimented. Two layers of this and my 1291 was in tune and still sounded just fine so I glued the strips in place with some glue I found at Michael's also that said it would work (it did) on cork. When the glue was dry, I sanded the edges round. I then cut another 1/2" wide stip and glued it around the small end of the mute so I could put it in the horn one-handed without a big clank. All in all, this solved some intonation and response issues with the Humes and Berg for me. I then tried to make some velcro backed cork stips to size it for a Holton 345 but by the time I got the mute high enough in the bell to be in tune, it did not sound good, so this technique may or may not work on all horns. The velcro thing worked fine and would alow one mute to fit more than one horn. Anyway, this worked for me and I am a happy camper. Taping the strips in place allows you to experiment and the total investment is not bad, especially if it solves the problem.

[ThomasP]

When I played John Stevens Triangles and Fisher Tull concerto de camera, for saxophone and brass quintet, I put in the put and play all the notes with the fifth valve depressed and simply played Bb fingerings. It was odd, but this made the intonation a little more managable. Just an idea you should try if you have 5 valves. I didn't move my main tuning slide at all.