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I think a C or an F both fit equally well. With a C I have to lighten up. But these days since I am making a complete switch to F tuba (going to sell the C when I get around to it) I have no choice. After 20 years of playing C tuba in a quintet, the F is definitely a different sound and feel. But considering that a lot of quintet playing is more soloistic than a band or orchestra, I think the F works better. For a lot of literature, it's certainly easier. Although for a piece like the Malcolm Arnold, I will definitely miss the C. With my new quintet we have had 4 rehearsals and I have played F for 2 and C for 2. No one really had anything to say about it - I don't think they noticed. I guess that's a good thing for me. Of course I can hear a huge difference is the sound. Anyway, I really don't have anything revolutionary to add to this thread. But I thought I'd chime in.

Stefan

F tuba... hey, some groups want a bass trombone! Keep us relevant!

1 - I don't know. I didn't know that playing F in quintet was the norm.

2 - no, but who cares?

3 - I would choose F over CC because generally an F tuba has a more chamber music sound than most CC tubas. Every time that I hear a 6/4 CC used in a quintet, I think that it is too powerful and too broad of a sound for chamber music, no matter how much the player tries to control and lighten up the sound. F, Eb and 3/4, maybe 4/4 CC tubas are better suited for chamber music. John Fletcher, Rex Martin, Dan Perantoni are/were also quintet masters, using F and Eb tubas in their quintets, most effectively.

All this talk makes me want to go get my E- flat playing back up to speed! I believe it to be a great bridge to the gap. I think Wade hits it on the head: Clarity. All this being said, if I'm going to a sight- reading quintet gig, I'll likely bring my small CC tuba just for security. Something that will receive rehearsal means I can pick the best horn for the job.
At the risk of hijacking the thread,I'd like to add that our tuba -euphonium quartet went to E- flat, F and 2 euphoniums(ditching the CC for E- flat) and haven't looked back ( of course it helps when the Eefer player is Tom Holtz!).
JC

I play Eb exclusively but as that's the only tuba I currently own that's the only thing I can play.

the elephant wrote:Not everything has to be Prokofiev, with a huge, dark warm tone. Quintet is one of those places. Clarity is the biggest friend to tuba players who figure that out. It is the worst enemy of most of us, however. Clarity. Clarity. Clarity. Not gigantic, udder-swaying tone. Clarity. Even a tiny tuba has a huge breadth of tone compared with two trumpets, a horn and a trombone. This quartet sounds so wonderful without the ponderous, giant, flabby tuba. Add that tone and it comes apart. But a very lean tone that is most definitely a bass voice in character adds so much. Yet we so often overdo that and end up sounding comical and degrading the lightness of such a small ensemble.

I live for lightness, clarity, transparency, balance and character. I abhor *volume* for volume's sake despite the fact that I can really step on it when needed. I try to make the other players in my quintets have to work to play down to me in the very soft stuff.

Bravo. An excellent post. Very intelligent.
Ace

I second Ace's remarks about Elephant's post

Hi ya'll,
1.) I'm not sure anyone is to be credited with this trend (I could be wrong). Since the ensemble is so small and a 'larger' tuba could overpower the instrumentation, the F might be the more attractive option for clarity's sake.

2.) Every time I've seen the Canadian Brass, Dr. Daellenbach was using his Yamaha CC. Mr. Pilafian with Empire I believe used both CC and F (correct me if I'm wrong) and Mr. Fletcher with the Philip Jones Brass Ensemble used an Eb. I think the 'masters' used what sounded best for the given ensemble and what they were most comfortable playing on.

3.) I tend to gravitate towards F in a quintet setting for a few reasons. The timbre of the instrument blends well with the instrumentation, I'm able to play a wider range of dynamics without overpowering the ensemble, and most of the music for quintet fits the F fingerings a little better. However, I let the music dictate what instrument I choose. I play a 4/4 CC so even though it can put out a great deal of sound I can still control it enough to fit within the ensemble. If the given piece is scored lower and fits the fingerings better I will use the CC, otherwise I use the F.

For the longest time I played my CC exclusively in quintet due to the lack of an F. My quintet members LOVED the big sound and they were very boisterous players so they could stand up to the sound. I didn't start playing F in the group after being with them for almost two years. All-in-all, I would suggest to anyone trying to decide which to choose, play what ever sounds best to you AND your quintet members (their opinions do count).

-CT

It all depends on the music you play - different styles demands different sounds.
One cannot play music from the reneissance on big tubas with big mouthpieces.
If you are a great player you probably have the skills to play with some sound variations on one instrument, and you probably can make some variations with different mouthpieces.
If you are a great AND wealthy player you also probably can choose between different instruments
If you are just wealthy it probably does`nt matter which instrument you choose
Roger

I've been using CC tuba exclusively for many, many years. When I bring in an F it just doesn't have the depth that the group likes to hear, and I have a pretty good F. I do a lot of playing at Notre Dame University and the Choir Director, after hearing me on my 188, told me that I am no longer allowed to bring any other tuba but that one.

It blends so smoothly with the upper voices and when playing with the horn the blend comes off as a completely different sound. It plays well high and low. I don't have to sweat the 2nd movement of the Bozza Sonatine, the Malcolm Arnold, Kerry Turner's Ricochet or the Etler. With the right mouthpiece you can have the clarity, as well as the depth and the horn sings well in all registers.

After one of my quintets had to use a sub for a gig, the next time we played together the trumpet player actually said when we started to warm up: "There it is. That's the sound I've been missing". The sub had used a Norwegian Star EEb and had played very well.

This is just my experience.

Roger

Forgive me, as I have an admitted axe to grind...

I am old enough to remember a time, when every high school student was not expected to have a CC tuba, AND an F.
Back in the stone age, it was enough that you just had your own BBb!

It seems to me, that the affluence that had existed in our country, is responsible for making the F tuba in quintet "trend" possible.
The fact that people actually owned F tubas, compelled them to find ways to use it, in order to justify their parents' purchase!

(Stepping down from soapbox, now....)

I play with an amateur quintet and a big tuba would just bury them.

Plus, on and above the staff, the F tuba is easier to manage, making me more accurate and musical when using the F. If you don't need that, then blessings upon your house. I do.

Wade's point about clarity, with the implied echo from Joe, is right on the money. A third of the time, I'm trying to blend with the trombone. Another third, I'm blending with the horn. The tuba is a unique voice for the remainder. All of those applications benefit from clarity. The ability to match tone with a trombone is particularly useful, and it was difficult using the B&S until I started using the Sellmansberger Solo. With the Yamaha 621, matching the trombone is easy, but I still like the B&S better for the solo voice stuff.

Once or twice I have run into music where the tuba is playing a low jazz walking bass or something similar, where the felt-rather-than-heard sound of a contrabass would be better. But any contrabass big enough to provide that effect would be unsuitable for those other applications. I can do well enough on the F, and the more I do it, the better it will work.

Arnold Jacobs is the only person I've ever seen or heard play a 6/4 tuba in a regularly performing quintet (I'm not considering pickup groups where you play what you have). His mastery of a light touch on that instrument is legendary, of course. He was also suffering from a poor selection of F tubas compared to what we have available today--the B&S Symphonie was just barely available in the 70's when he was in the later stages of his career, and his experiences with bass tubas included a Dehmal Vienna-configuration F and a Boosey compensating instrument similar to the one used by Catelinet for the Vaughan Williams, and neither of which would provide the versatility of modern F tubas.

PIlafian supports the use of C tubas, but his C is about as big as I've seen in use. And it's a Meinl-Weston Model 37, the "King" model, and it's pretty small by C tuba standards. Daellenbach's 621 C is no bigger than their F. There are others, of course, who use bigger tubas, but I bet they never use more than the bottom third of the instrument's dynamic range except on rare occasion.

(Responding to Jedi Master: The question was not posed by a high schooler nor is it intended to persuade high school students to spend recklessly. I played in a quintet using a Bb for a long time because that's what I had. It worked, but it wasn't optimal. I was grown up when I bought my first tuba of any type, and my parents had never bought me a tuba. For grownups who can afford a couple of instruments, it's a reasonable discussion, because the choice is a valid one for them. And it keeps me from spending my money on drugs and sex.) (That was a joke. You can laugh.)

Rick "choosing the instrument that supports the artistic objective in the context of the player's limitations" Denney

And it keeps me from spending my money on drugs and sex.) (That was a joke. You can laugh.)

Don't you mean cameras and bikes?!?

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said. . . I do find Eb to be a great "compromise" horn - big enough down low and light enough up top.

--T. J.

I primarily used my Besson 983 Eb in the (amateur) quintets in which I have played. The 983 is a relatively large bass tuba though that can sound like a small CC and has a nice low range IMHO. That said, I only own BBb and Eb horns, and even my smallest BBb has more presence than works well for the quintets in which I have played. In addition, as an amateur I find it much easier to hit the notes in the range in which the quintet music we have been playing is written on my smaller horn. I don't think I would be happy playing a very small Eb in the same groups though because I can't get the same breadth of sound on them, at least the ones I have.

T. J. Ricer wrote:Don't you mean cameras and bikes?!?

Yeah...that's what I meant...yeah.

Rick "that's my story and I'm sticking to it" Denney

I choose F tuba for most "classical" repertoire, since I feel it gets a better balance and blend with the other voices.

I play in a quintet that mostly does weddings, church services and the like, and the F tuba is perfect for most Baroque/Renaissance transcriptions due to the lighter tone.

When we do wedding receptions, we play all jazz stuff and I am the bass, so I bring the big (Rudy 5/4) guns out for that... also when we play with an organ. It's damn near irresistible to get into a blow-the-walls-down blast-fest with an organ

For me it comes down to what I want the group sound to be:

5-piece brass ensemble: F tuba
4-piece brass ensemble plus bass: CC tuba

T. J. Ricer wrote:

And it keeps me from spending my money on drugs and sex.) (That was a joke. You can laugh.)

Don't you mean cameras and bikes?!?

Aren't they the same thing?

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said. . . I do find Eb to be a great "compromise" horn - big enough down low and light enough up top.

--T. J.

I have just the Eb tuba you need. It's a modified Besson...bloke fixed it so you don't need the silly tuning stick.

I can envision your poll results could skew quite a bit if an Eb option were offered. I note from other posters some mention of the Arnold in particular - man, does that lie well on Eb! As one might expect.

On acquiring my 983 I made that the default horn for my quintet. It took some getting used to from all sides, but I heard no complaints.

I have gravitated back toward my 184 for "pick-up" gigs because the horn is so predictable, and since in most of my orchestral playing I am in CC anyway. As I've posted so many times before on this forum, I tend not to practice much - I depend on "plug-and-play" quite a bit. And I know my 184 pretty well now after 35 years.

Last Fall I played a pair of concerts with a group culled from one of the orchestras I play in. Closing the program was Stars and Stripes, arranged with tuba on the pic part. Lies not very well on CC, passably well on Eb. I quickly realized that several other of the pieces we were playing were effective on Eb, so I wound up switching back and forth quite a bit, to justify toting both horns. After the second concert was over and we were packing to leave, the 2nd trumpet commented on my heavy burden. That was the first notice he took that I had brought and played 2 instruments. And no one, from either audience, mentioned it.

The first question that comes to my mind is, "Does size matter?"

The second question is, "The size of what?"

Addendum to second question, "Bore, MP, horn, sound or all of the above."

Addendum to all the above, "If the size of the sound doesn't overwhelm the rest of the ensemble, and the intonation difficulties and overtone series problems in the high range can be managed, does the key really matter?"

I use mostly a 4/4 CC. I can play most of the rep on it and I like the broader sound. All my colleagues use their orchestra horns, so why shouldn't I? Plus all the jazzy stuff sounds more bassy. When we are doing recital-type performances, I carry 2 horns and play any bass trombone parts on the F, as well as any really high, light stuff, like Bozza for instance. I don't think there is a real 'standard.' I say, "Play what ya want."