TubeNet

I think this has been discussed before, but searching for "Nirschl" simply brings up too many hits.

Has anyone played side-by-side the lineup of the different Nirschl 4/4 CC tubas:

-- Brazil made
-- German production model
-- German handmade model

Probably about a $6k jump between each of these models. What's the playing difference?

I've only played the handmade before, and thought it was awesome. Heh, and back then it was "only" like $11k new.

Contact Richard Barth at Barthsbrassblog.com. He could tell you anything you could ever want to know.

BRSousa wrote:Contact Richard Barth at Barthsbrassblog.com. He could tell you anything you could ever want to know.

With all due respect: Would that be an independent source of information?

One alternative:

viewtopic.php?p=345687#p345687

Klaus

Thanks guys. Thinking more from the top down than bottom up though... I've played and loved the Handmade. How does the production model compare to that? And then how does the Brazil-made model compare to that?

Most of the buzz I've heard has been about the Brazilian tubas, which I hear are surprisingly good for the price. I'm just wondering what the difference is in the German-made ones.

Hi guys!!!

The tubas P. Weingrill, manufactured by Weril Musical Instruments are sold in Brazil for approximately U.S. $ 7800,00.
They are in the BBb and in CC, and four valves.
Bell: 483 mm
Bore: 19 mm e 20 mm
Look at the pictures:
http://www.tritons.com.br/produtos.asp? ... tegoria=17

Big hugs!!!!

Cleverson

bloke wrote:current German model ("Besson 995") - Some are remarkably well in tune with themselves. Most of them seem brickish and stuffy to me. (What's the deal with the m'pc receiver...??)

I don't always understand how to interpret "stuffy" as a description. When talking about an old horn with poor valve alignment, some Besson compers, and the low C on some F tubas, I can understand. But for something like a new Nirschl, what does stuffy really mean? Something wrong with the design of the horn? Or an incompatibility between the player (and how he likes to play) and the horn (and how it likes to be played)?

Is it that it's possible to get it to play right, but would just take more (or too much) effort from that player? That seems the case with a lot of "stuffy" low registers on F tubas. All the notes are there, you just have to find them and learn where they are. Some people can find them, others can't (or choose not to and go for something easier).

Kind of like that? Or are some tubas, even when new and well-aligned, just "kind of stuffy"?

bloke wrote:My PERSONAL view (which has nothing necessarily to do with reality...THOUGH I HAVE PLAYED ALL THREE) is as follows:

Weril/Brazil-made model - similar to what I might expect of a Jin-Bao-made copy, except an extra thou' or two in $$$$'s

current German model ("Besson 995") - Some are remarkably well in tune with themselves. Most of them seem brickish and stuffy to me. (What's the deal with the m'pc receiver...??)

original Nirschl-German "B/M Symphonic" or "Meister Walter Nirschl" model - very thinwall-ed instrument. Some are remarkably in-tune tubas. Some (as with some "Besson 995" instruments) are quirkier pitch-wise. Most all of these produced (whether or not this is what is sought by the player) a VERY "round" sound.

I think you are referring to the handmade Nirschl's when you say "original Nirschl-German" tubas, I think. The handmade horns are thin-walled compared to the "B/M Symphonic" or "Meister Walter Nirschl" models because all of tubing (except the valve cluster) is hand hammered out of sheet brass.

Walter himself (apologies) told me the Bessons were made in Germany and shipped to England. The very same instrument as the "B/M Symphonic" or "Meister Walter Nirschl" model except for the leadpipe. I don't discount that something may have been lost in his English-as-a-second-language. I have always considered the Bessons/Nirschls an excellent value.

I haven't played Jin Bao tubas so I can't disagree but... if they play as good as the Brazilian Nirschls I've played, I'd buy one in a heartbeat. The half dozen Brazilian Nirschls I have played back-to-back with my Nirschl were really close. Some things are better, some things are not. Every instrument is always a compromise until you stick an original Helleberg in it; then nothing else matters.

A couple Brazilian Nirschls CC's have been sold to full-time orchestral players, a pretty good endorsement. I believe they are definitely worth considering.

bloke wrote:If I did that, I probably would have bought a PT-6P and a Yamaha 822 F tuba years ago.

Wait. You haven't yet??!

bloke wrote: I'm not sure that the engraving/stamping placed on this-or-that of Herr Nirschl's tubas was particularly consistent. I have worked on a couple of B/M Symphonic CC tubas that were obviously hand-crafted (with hand-hammered bows/seams and egg-shell thin brass).

Almost anything is possible with products from the (German) Nirschl factory (? - I don't know what else to call it). They will use any and all available parts lying around to complete a run of instruments and can produce instruments which are magic and instruments which... are not.

So when you say that you've worked on mismarked handmade B&S Nirschls, I believe it. From my experience and conversations with Nirschl, anything is possible.

I was attempting to relate his stated practice re: the nomenclature of handmade tubas and of "factory" made horns for clarification which has now been elaborated with empirical information. Valid in every way.

bloke wrote: My observations are only opinions. If anyone agreed with any of my opinions, I would consider that to be a miracle. I've been known to be wrong quite a few times, but I suspect (from having held them in my hands) that some detective work would trace most of the CC "Besson" tubas' origins back to a G.A.M.-owned plant. One thing that I do NOT do is chase after models of tubas because they are used by this-or-that player who has been hired to do this-or-that job. If I did that, I probably would have bought a PT-6P and a Yamaha 822 F tuba years ago.

And lastly, experienced and capable musicians will make their own decision about which instrument to play and how they wants to sound.

However, I would bet that the majority of tuba players on this board are seeking and heeding advice; your opinions posted here are read, quoted and followed. I would not presume to disagree.

As a teacher myself, I give facts to my students which should they must weigh as they find their way through this art form. It is a fact that some professional players have bought Nirschl tubas and that might be information other people need and is in no way intended as a disagreement. It's just information.

I own a Meister Walter Nirschl 4/4 CC tuba that I bought new from Custom Music in 1997. I don't know if it is handmade or not (someone smart can advise) but I can tell you it doesn't feel thin-walled to me. In fact, it is one of the heavier tubas I have ever played.

Having played many different horns, I have found the Nirschl to be the best horn I've played. The Nirschl has excellent response, resonance and a broad sound, the sound has a nice throaty core (or growl) and the intonation is very good. The horn has a very big and full sound. It doesn't blat out or frack easily unlike a lot of horns I have played before and it really allows you to fill out an orchestra with a lot of sound.

I recently played a Darryl Smith Kalison which seemed to weigh half as much as my Nirschl. The Kalison felt more like I was playing a Euphonium with the small sound and quick response, but it had no power or fullness. When playing it fully, I quickly peaked out and couldn't get close to matching the Nirschl sound in fullness, resonance or core.

While I haven't tried the B&M or Brazil versions, I wouldn't trade the original that I have for anything.

luke_hollis wrote:In fact, it is one of the heavier tubas I have ever played.

I don't know specifically about Nirschl's, but if it feels heavy, then my bet is it is a production model. Handmade tubas are usually noticeably lighter.

How do you know if the early Nirschls are handmade or production?

bloke wrote:

luke_hollis wrote:Another indication is a tooth-style seam (sometimes difficult to see, and impossible to see on silver plated instruments).

You can see this from the inside too...like if you look way down in the bell...right?

Edit to show my ignorance... is there always *a* seam (and just that specific type of seam is an indication)? Here's a quick (bad) photo I quickly took down inside my tuba, looking at the inside bottom bow.

My Meister Walter Nirschl CC was built in 1994 and was originally sold new by Orpheus Music.

Herr Nirschl told me that he built only 15 horns in this configuration.

luke_hollis wrote:I wouldn't trade the original that I have for anything.

Ditto. I once toyed with the notion of an even-up trade offer for an excellent 6/4 tuba and was chided by the well-recognized tuba professor with whom I studied. He had play-tested my horn before I purchased it. "It would be folly for you to ever part with that tuba," he firmly remarked.