Project With York Tuba Pics added

[CNCBrass]

I have a York Monster Eb that I am think of using for a project horn. I believe the model number is 661. It has 3 upright valves. It sounds ok in and above the staff, but anything below is very unstable and sounds bad. Several possible reasons could be, lack of practice, I don't have a mouthpiecce that fits properly, the leadpipe has had sugnificant damage in the past and the repairs are suspect. Because I don't use this as my regular horn and it already has some issues, I am thinking of trying a couple of different things.

I know there are folks who have used the bells and maybe the bottom bow to make a BBb or CC tuba. What I haven't seen is anyone who has done this using a rotary valve set. Does anyone know if this has been done and if so how it turned out? I would be looking to turn it into a BBb tuba. I do have access to a rotary valve set. I suppose I could just keep looking for a piston vvalve set. My other though would be to leave it as a Eb, but replace the leadpipe and add a 4th valve.

I am curious to hear from those who have experience with these old horns either as they are or by making modifications. I anticipate that this project will be onging for a few years and am looking forward to documenting the process.

DH

[T. J. Ricer]

Some people didn't think it would work out that well, but I can tell you, this is a great horn! It's built from a Mirafone 186 BBb and York Monster Eb. I've used this horn on several recitals (great Hindemith horn) and a couple times in smaller orchestra situations:



Built by Tim Owens (now a repair man near Newport News, VA).

--T. J.

[SousaSaver]

The project you propose would be a bit tricky for a few reasons: length of the horn and bore size. These are two options that you would have to consider when doing conversions or modifications.

BBb Tuba is around 18 feet long. Eb Tuba is around 13 feet long. This means you would have to add around 5 feet of tubing to the bugle of the horn to make it play in BBb. This does not mean that you should give up your project. I recommend keeping the horn and using the various parts to make a great player OR sell the bell and bottom bow to a friendly tubenetter

[SousaSaver]

Is this your project horn?



If so, then definitely use it for the bell and bottom bow. Did you ever consider cutting it down to F?

[UTSAtuba]

The project you propose would be a bit tricky for a few reasons: length of the horn and bore size. These are two options that you would have to consider when doing conversions or modifications.

BBb Tuba is around 18 feet long. Eb Tuba is around 13 feet long. This means you would have to add around 5 feet of tubing to the bugle of the horn to make it play in BBb. This does not mean that you should give up your project. I recommend keeping the horn and using the various parts to make a great player OR sell the bell and bottom bow to a friendly tubenetter

If you combine the bell and bottom bow with the branches/valve section of Miraphone 186 BBb (and a lot of adjusting), you may possibly get what you're looking for. BUT, as the above post mentions, it is not a good idea to just paste a valve set and add five feet of cylindrical tubing. It defeats the purpose of the design of the horn.

Joseph

[CNCBrass]

BRSousa, Yes that is the project horn. Nice pictures! Turning it ito an F is an interesting idea, but ot one I would be thinking of pursuing. My policy on anything that I do not have listed for sale is that if one is interested you must approach me with an offer and I will respond as to that offer. In otherwords, don't ask how much I would ask for an item, take the time to make an offer.

As far as converting this to a rotary BBb, I am well aware of the effort that would be required if I were to use just an existing valveset. Although I am not intimidated by this, I must say taht in the interest of completing the project before the next decade, I would be looking at marrying it another horn such as was done for the poster above.

My biggest dilema at the moment is in trying to predict if it is better to go the piston valve approach or to proceed with the rotary valve idea. I do not have a personal preference for one over the other, but am interested in opinions about the success or failures of similar project results.

DH

[SousaSaver]

My biggest dilema at the moment is in trying to predict if it is better to go the piston valve approach or to proceed with the rotary valve idea. I do not have a personal preference for one over the other, but am interested in opinions about the success or failures of similar project results.

DH

If you are only going to marry the bell and bow to another set of branches and valve set, your only real concern is going to be the fit of the parts. I guess the bigger question would be what do you prefer, rotors or pistons?

[cjk]

What's your goal here? Are you doing all the work yourself?

The York Monster EEb tubas are pretty out of tune with themselves. They do vary, but IMHO, they vary from fairly out of tune with themselves but "sort of" workable to woefully out of tune with themselves. I expect that if you cut one to F, it would be even worse. I doubt it would result in a useful instrument.

Putting your bell and maybe even the bottom bow on a King 2341 BBb or Conn 56j, 54j, or 52j CC would result in a very good playing and pretty sounding instrument. If you want a BBb and are willing to take your time looking, you can find a decent old style 2341 with 4 valves for well under $1000. You'd probably be spending $3500+ on one of the Conn CCs.

Replacing a bell and perhaps a bottom bow would be significantly more cost effective than cutting a horn. Replacing just the bell would be cheaper yet.

If you're doing the work yourself and have access to one of the Conn CCs, you could cut a 2341 BBb to CC using the Conn as a reference. I think the Conn CCs are "mostly" King 2341s which have been shortened. Replacing the bell stack on one of the tall 2341s will likely get the bugle to the key of B.


Christian

[SousaSaver]

If you want a BBb and are willing to take your time looking, you can find a decent old style 2341 with 4 valves for well under $1000.

That's a great idea. Even if you only used the bell from the York on the King, it would probably be pretty good!

[Tuba Guy]

I personally have a York monster Eb too (though 4v). I was told when I first got it (by Matt Walters, I believe) that the bell and bottom bow on these Yorks are what they made the bell and bottom bow out of for my Getzen CB50. I've had serious thoughts about switching those two pieces of tubing on those horns, and my repairman says it's feasible. You might want to look into a used CB50 if you want something that should match up well.

[UTSAtuba]

Putting your bell and maybe even the bottom bow on a King 2341 BBb or Conn 56j, 54j, or 52j CC would result in a very good playing and pretty sounding instrument. If you want a BBb and are willing to take your time looking, you can find a decent old style 2341 with 4 valves for well under $1000. You'd probably be spending $3500+ on one of the Conn CCs.

Replacing a bell and perhaps a bottom bow would be significantly more cost effective than cutting a horn. Replacing just the bell would be cheaper yet.

If you're doing the work yourself and have access to one of the Conn CCs, you could cut a 2341 BBb to CC using the Conn as a reference. I think the Conn CCs are "mostly" King 2341s which have been shortened. Replacing the bell stack on one of the tall 2341s will likely get the bugle to the key of B.


Christian

That's, roughly, what Sam Gnagey does with his concoctions.

[CNCBrass]

I was able to find a King 2341 (old sytyle) to use for my project. I started today by removing the bottom and bell from the York. This came apart pretty easy as several of the braces and the conection at the bottom bow did not ahve much solder on them at all. I left the bell and bottom bow in tact but seperated them from the rest of the horn. Next came the King. I removed the leadpipe, and then the bottom bow. Once again the solder was very sparce and did not go completely around the joint.

The valves from the king are in very good condition. They hardly look used. I did encounter a problem with the first valve. It was stuck in the casing. I had to press it out. I used a lot of lubricant to minimize any damage that might occur. the valve itself was not damaged at all. When I got it out I mounted it between centers and checked runout. The valve turned out to be okay. the next step was to check the casing. I was able to find one area where there was a dent one the inside. This was strange because there is no evidence on the outside of any damage. I will have to approach the fix very carefully. I need to fix this one area without affecting any of the surrounding areas.

As it turns out, the ends of the bottom bows are exactly the same diameters. This is a very pleasant surprise. I was prepared to have to make some adjustments here. I am a little concerned that the horn will play a little on the flat side due to the shorter bell. I need to remove a flat spot from the connecting ring before I can connect them. The leadpipe will also need to be repositioned.

I am taking pictures along the way and will post them when I get time.

DH

[SousaSaver]

...the next step was to check the casing. I was able to find one area where there was a dent one the inside. This was strange because there is no evidence on the outside of any damage. I will have to approach the fix very carefully. I need to fix this one area without affecting any of the surrounding areas.

As it turns out, the ends of the bottom bows are exactly the same diameters. This is a very pleasant surprise. I was prepared to have to make some adjustments here. I am a little concerned that the horn will play a little on the flat side due to the shorter bell. I need to remove a flat spot from the connecting ring before I can connect them. The leadpipe will also need to be repositioned.

I am taking pictures along the way and will post them when I get time.

DH

It isn't difficult to remove a dent from a King valve casing...if you have the right tools. There are a few different ways to approach this; 1) mandrel, 2) burnisher or 3) some other wildly unsafe last resort. PM me and I would be happy to talk to you about this.

Secondly, I think you mean the horn would play sharp because of the shorter bell.

Good luck! Post as many pics as you can.

[CNCBrass]

Secondly, I think you mean the horn would play sharp because of the shorter bell.

Yes, this is what I meant to say.

I was able to remove the dent from the first valve casing today. As it turns out, the stem was tweaked a little as well so that was also straightened. I had to spend some time working on the ferrule that will connect the York bottom bow to the King main body. It was quite flat on one side so a little hammering brought it into shape.
I next dry fit the parts together as I was very anxious to try it out. So, holding the leadpipe in with one hand and gingerly setting it in my lap I blew the first notes.

Holy Cow! Now I know what all the hype is about. What a sound throughout the range. As expected, it does play quite sharp. So the next step is to bring the pitch down. I need to determine how I am going to do this.

DH

[CNCBrass]

Tuba Project 270 (480x640).jpg

Tuba Project 274 (480x640).jpg

Tuba Project 278 (640x480).jpg

[CNCBrass]

Tuba Project 285 (480x640) (2).jpg

Tuba Project 286 (480x640).jpg

[iiipopes]

As it turns out, the ends of the bottom bows are exactly the same diameters. This is a very pleasant surprise.

This is because H. N. White hired F. A. Reynolds away from York to develop the King valved instruments while White worked with Thomas King to develop the trombone line. So of course, F. A. Reynolds brought all his know-how he had learned while working at York.

[rodgeman]

Thanks for the pics. This looks like a great project.

[SousaSaver]

Looks good!

[CNCBrass]

Okay, so I know that I will have to add tubing to bring the pitch down. As is, it plays at about B natural. I will experiment using a rubber hose in an attempt to get an approximation of how much tubing I will need to add. In my mind I have a couple of options.

Option 1: I could add a loop after the 4th valve similar to what is done on instruments that are set up with the high/low pitch tuning options.

Option 2: Add a loop in the lead pipe such as is frequently seen on some of the older instruments.

Can anyone speak as to which option may be more successful? By successful I mean sound and intonation wise. If you were doing this which way would you choose and why?

Thanks,
DH