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I know that Chuck D. has used a YCB-621 and CB-50. But what is this horn...



It doesn't look familiar (I'm talking about the horn...I know about the whole carbon-fiber bell thing)

Joseph

Indeed! I posted a thread some time ago about Yammy CC tubas, and got nowhere. This horn, if it had a brass bell, is about the same size and layout of the horn I was asking about: if Yammy in the mid to late '70's made a piston CC with a moderate bell, .689 bore, and 4-front valves.

Do you have a larger image? I have been trying to find a picture of any of the Yamaha carbon fiber horns for a long while now.

Plus, I am thumbing around Tubenet while very tired. I initially thought this thread was about the guy from Public Enemy, not Chuck Dallenbach. I need a nap...

Sorry, that's the only picture of that horn I can find.

@iiipopes: The horn seems to have a similar frame to the YCB-822, but I believe you're right on that it's a different animal. You are very correct about the valve set. I've never seen a Yamaha valve set like that...

Joseph

Carbon fiber epoxy resin composites have been used very successfully for violin, viola and cello bows and bodies. The sound ratings are excellent to fantastic. This is the same stuff used for fishing poles, tennis rackets, stealth fighter jets, and the Boeing 787. I was't aware that tubas and other brass instruments would sound good with these materials.

Chuck D is one ill brother.

UTSAtuba wrote:I know that Chuck D. has used a YCB-621 and CB-50. But what is this horn...



It doesn't look familiar (I'm talking about the horn...I know about the whole carbon-fiber bell thing)

Joseph

I believe it is a Getzen G50.

I was very lucky to have played this horn once, when the CB was giving a clinic at a local university. It is a Yamaha. The body is like an 822 F in size, but it is in CC. I don't think it was commercially available. It played amazingly well, and made me consider getting a carbon fiber bell made for my Meinl Weston at the time.

^ I wonder why these never really caught on? Seemed(s) like a great idea If carbon-fiber is as light as - or even lighter than - fiberglass but sounds more like brass, you'd think there would be many more carbon-fiber bell tubas......or even complete carbon fiber tubas.

tooba wrote:^ I wonder why these never really caught on? Seemed(s) like a great idea If carbon-fiber is as light as - or even lighter than - fiberglass but sounds more like brass, you'd think there would be many more carbon-fiber bell tubas......or even complete carbon fiber tubas.

The manufacturing costs would be extremely high for tooling and labor. The last time I checked, carbon fiber was selling for around $10 a pound, while brass was around $1.70. Most of the products using carbon fiber are very high end or produced in a large volume to offset the costs (golf clubs, boats, guns, bike frames). Very few cars use it and the ones that do are very expensive, as are the aircraft.

In a market niche where the tubas are already very expensive, using carbon fiber for a bell or an entire horn would be cost prohibitive. From what I've read and heard, Dallenbach's CF bell was a one-off experiment that proved to work very well, but in the end was just that, one-off.

Unless someone is willing to pay for a custom job, I don't see this being used any time soon.

The tuba in the picture is not a Getzen G-50 (actually it would have been called the Canadian Brass CB-50 in this case) nor is it a Yamaha 621.

It is a one-off "tweener" horn built for Daellenbach. It has a number like 822, but it isn't an 822. It is not commercially available.

The carbon fiber bells aren't really that new and weren't invented by Yamaha. The bells are made by George McCracken. He made them for the G-50 quite a few years before Daellenbach was seen using them on a Yamaha. Daellenbach has been using the carbon fiber bells for probably a dozen years or more by now.

As far as carbon composites "being more like brass", I would want to see some real engineering analysis to support that.

The only way I think it's possible is if the additional strength of the carbon fibers (compared to glass fibers) makes it possible for the composite to be thinner.

The binder in both cases is a thermoset plastic, either polyester resin or epoxy. So, their compression stiffness will be about the same. Their tensile stiffness will depend on the orientation of the weave.

My engineering brain suggests that the only reason for the fibers is to increase the tensile strength enough to make the material durable. I would like to see real evidence to suggest an audible acoustic difference. Unless the fiber reinforcement materials are tensioned during construction (and they are not), they will likely have no influence on the structural properties of the binder plastic.

I know of a Conn xJ-sized instrument made by George McCracken in carbon fiber all the way back to the dogleg. It is wonderfully light. The owner notes that it is easier to play, but with less projection than his other instruments (and his regular C is a CB-50). Such a description could be applied to a brass xJ, of course. I've heard him perform on it and it sounded fine for the jazz stuff he was doing.

Rick "who owns a fiberglass tuba that does indeed sound like a tuba" Denney

I played one of Chuck's horns when they played woth the Symph here. he sounded GREAT on it. Great sound, a TON of projection and sicne they do SO much mving around, the tuba was extremely light. When I played it, I liked the flexibility, I liked its responsiveness, the pitch was spot on (I'd need a 5th valve though), but I didn't feel like I could get much sound out of the thing. My bass trombone player told me he couldn't hear it. Chuck made that baby sing.....