TubeNet

Several decades ago, the Alex was "the horn to have" and the glorious sound was heard in a number of fine orchestras.
What happened?

Seems like their fans are still out there. Ben has 3!

The horn I regret selling most would probably have been my Alex F. It was the old style 3 valves in the left and 3 valves in the right hand when I bought it, and had been converted to the more conventional 4 +1 configuration by Dick Ackright. When I listen to the recordings I have of myself playing that horn, I think it is the most beautiful sound that I've made on an F tuba. However, the low register was incredibly difficult to deal with. This is why I've recently bought a Miraphone Firebird. I think it captures some of that beautiful German sound with a much more accessible low range. If Alexander has done anything in the past 20 or so years to improve the low register of their F tubas, I would certainly love to try one. But, I have also found them hard to come by to try them out. Do they show up at the big conferences?

-Frank

Not that I've played enough of either to really draw any playing comparisons...

But as far as market and exposure, Alexander and Rudolf Meinl tubas seem to have some similarities:
-- There are not many out there.
-- They don't change hands often.
-- The people who have them love them.
-- The companies seem to have little to no interest in dominating the tuba market (or at least not the American tuba market).

MartyNeilan wrote:Several decades ago, the Alex was "the horn to have" and the glorious sound was heard in a number of fine orchestras.
What happened?

Several random observations on this subject from me:

1. The players and teachers that popularized the Alexander tuba in the U.S. were playing them at a time when choices were far more limited.

2. Many of the players and teachers that popularized the Alexander tuba in the U.S. have retired or died. Their students tend to have students now that live in a time when the trends and choices are far different than they were in the 60s and 70s.

3. Alexander tubas were never really cranked out in high numbers, even when Giardinelli was importing them. That made them difficult to purchase new and difficult to try before buying. I suspect that many players that would have purchased an Alexander ended up buying Miraphones because of this.

4. The Alexanders that are out there tend to get held on to by the people that buy them. I don't know if it is a pride thing ("hey I'm able to play an Alexander") or if it is a sentimental thing, or if it is purely about the sound, but they don't come up too often, making for slim pickin' on the secondary market.

5. They are said be plagued by intonation problems. I don't agree with this as a blanket statement and think that many of today's "latest and greatest" tubas have just as many, if not more, problems than the Alexanders of yesteryear.

6. Many of the Alexander CC tubas are 4 valve. I manage just fine, but there are plenty of folks who wouldn't give a 4 valve CC a second look and plenty of teachers that would discount them for the same reason.

7. There is a perception today that Alexanders are old fashioned and they are played by people that don't know any better.

8. Alexander tubas are aging. They need a dedicated owner that is willing to invest in things like valve rebuilding, leadpipe replacement, linkage upgrades, etc. to keep them going strong. They also "look old." For many of us, the school tubas we used in middle school or high school were Miraphone 186s that had been used and abused. Many shoppers want something that is as far from that experience as you can get, ruling out Alexanders even though they are a world away from a Miraphone 186. Most are unlacquered, too. Some call that "ugly."

9. Mouthpiece selection is more limited due to the large leadpipe. Large shank mouthpieces are needed from Doug Elliott or an adaptor to use even a Euro shank mouthpiece.

10. Alexanders are generally not "point and shoot" tubas. They need to have the time put in to get the most out of them. Many interpret this as "too much work."

I have always liked the Alexander sound. I think the reason they have fallen 'out of favor' is that there are more choices for horn purchases now. B&S, Mirafone, Hirsbrunner, Meinl Weston, Yamaha, Nirschl, Gronitz all make great professional tubas. Add in new builders like Kanstul and some of the Brazilian and Asian knock-offs there are WAY more choices for horn purchases. Back in the day, Alexander was one of only a few choices for the discerning professional. Add in, it doesn't SEEM like they (Alexander) are pushing their tubas; horns yes, but not the tubas. Hornguys always has one or two around, and they are GREAT tubas, but by and large, they are not readily available.

Ain't got no muny fer un.

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but looking at it from the chair to the right, wasn't the biggest factor in the waning popularity of the Alexander tuba Arnold Jacobs? The de facto standard large orchestral tuba in the United States is now - and has been for at least 2 or 3 decades - the 4-piston/1-rotor 6/4 York-style instrument as played by Arnold Jacobs and his most successful students.

I had the opportunity to play many times next to Chester Schmitz, who won his job in Boston and played the first few seasons on an Alex. He pulled that horn out occasionally later on and sounded marvelous on it. He switched to a Yorkbrunner after Seiji Ozawa asked him politely if he would please play a "big silver tuba like man in Chicago Symphony."

Would it not be that Alexander are mainly a French Horn manufacture and as a result have devoted little effort into developing their tubas for many years - while at the same time many new much easier to play and consistent models have come on the market from other more forward looking manufacturers such as Meinl-Weston, B&S and Miraphone - so only those devoted to the Alex sound still buy them.

A classic business case of if you do not develop and move forward, your market share will ever diminish. Maybe French Horns are more profitable, so Alex don't really care?

Many who played Alexanders at a high level switched to Yorkbrunners when those became available. The Yorkbrunner was the first really good replica of the Chicago York (the Holtons were long out of production by then and had never been reliable replacements for the Yorks). Many of the guys who won their gigs in the 70's had studied with Jacobs and switched after the Yorkbrunners came out. Chester Schmitz and Mike Sanders are just two examples. Lee Hipp is another, though he switched to a Neptune.

Mike Sanders posted on this forum some years ago that he had had an opportunity to play his Alex in St. Louis ten years or so after he had sold it in favor of the Yorkbrunner. Mike said he tried it during a rehearsal in Powell Hall, but set it aside after a few minutes and went back to his Yorkbrunner. He was afraid the conductor would like it, heh. But he always said it was a difficult instrument to manage, and he never stopped moving that first valve slide when he was playing it. He also said that for the acoustic properties of Powell Hall, the Yorkrbrunner was more appropriate.

I remember when Mike changed from the Alex to the Hirsbrunner during his days in San Antonio. The difference in his sound was profound--it went from distant and forbidding to present and personal--the word that keeps coming to my mind to describe his Yorkbrunner sound is "friendly". I suspect how the sound of the two instruments bounced around in the cavernous Lila Cockrell Theater in San Antonio had a lot to do with the difference.

Rick "summarizing, not advocating" Denney

Gene Pokorny had changed to a Yorkbrunner while in St Louis also, but not from an Alex.

I'm not sure anymore what John McEnulty played on, but an Alex seems right. I'll ask him. Whatever, it was a great sounding tuba.

Rick Denney wrote: Many of the guys who won their gigs in the 70's had studied with Jacobs and switched after the Yorkbrunners came out. Chester Schmitz and Mike Sanders are just two examples. Lee Hipp is another, though he switched to a Neptune.

I never knew Chester Schmitz studied tuba with Jacobs... I always thought he was more or less self-taught. I also believe Mr. Schmitz won the Boston gig back in 1966. Wish he was still playing

Players discovered that it was possible to purchase tubas that actually played in-tune with themselves.

I have John McEnulty's Alexander F tuba. Wonderful little tuba, fantastic sound and easy to play. I am unsure as to what he played for his large tuba though.

In response to Mr. Sloan. Yes, MANY of the Alexanders had 'pitch issues,' but when you found a gem, WOW it was incredible! I think way back when, with so few choices in high end tubas, the pitch discrepancies were tolerated in exchange for that sound. With the current state of the art in horn building, it has been PROVEN that one can build a high end instrument, AND have excellent pitch. OUR expectations are higher.

I think that the evolution to the current style of bass bone playing has alot to do with it. Alexanders have the most beautiful sound but not the all encompassing presence you need toput the ring of tuba sound around around the bass bone when you are in unison. And we as American tuba players have now almost gotten to where the Brits are with a pretty unified concept of sound. I personally really like that there is a distinctive American sound as evidenced by Messers Porkorny,
Olka, Baer, and Roylance to name a few. But I will Always be a huge fan of Chester on his Alexander even though he sounded fantastic on the Hirsbrunner when he switched. And the bass bone players have mutated the sound from a trombone with an extended low range to a creature all it's own. For better or worse.Ed

Mr. Firth, I concur!

bloke wrote:production/distribution/intonation

... and maybe add R&D.

Look at the new horns MW and Miraphone have come out with in the last 5-10 years. 15 years ago you could hardly buy a piston valve anything (Yorkbrunner excepted) from Europe.

Alexander isn't pushing tuba sales or tuba development, the 'super-secret' annealing process they formerly used is gone...

However, I love what one former Alexander owner said: "I don't want to play it in the orchestra because I'm afraid the conductor will like it."

EdFirth wrote: And the bass bone players have mutated the sound from a trombone with an extended low range to a creature all it's own. For better or worse.Ed

Better, Ed. Much, much better. And what trombone player wants a tuba wrapped around him anyway? But that's a whole 'nuther topic.

tooba wrote:

Rick Denney wrote: Many of the guys who won their gigs in the 70's had studied with Jacobs and switched after the Yorkbrunners came out. Chester Schmitz and Mike Sanders are just two examples. Lee Hipp is another, though he switched to a Neptune.

I never knew Chester Schmitz studied tuba with Jacobs... I always thought he was more or less self-taught. I also believe Mr. Schmitz won the Boston gig back in 1966. Wish he was still playing

I mixed my examples--it was Mike Sanders I was thinking of. Schmitz did switch from an Alex to a Yorkbrunner, though, and it would not surprise me if he studied at least some with Jacobs--nearly everyone of that playing approach did at one time or another. But I would be accidentally right at best.

And I don't think Lee studied directly with Jacobs, either. He studied with Dave Kirk and others, but the tradition was there. Speaking of Dave Kirk, what did he play before his Nirschl?

There were some Bell acolytes who switched to Yorkophones, too, the most notable example being Floyd Cooley. But I don't know what he played starting out.

In the presence versus power distinction between Yorkishness and Alexishness, presence won.

Rick "who also wishes Schmitz was still playing" Denney