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Here are two Conn Orchestra Grand Bass tubas from the Tuba Exchange historical collection page. Both are listed as BBb, both listed as made in the same year (1916).

Why is the main tuning slide (in the leadpipe) so much longer on the one than on the other, given that they're both allegedly BBb horns?

bloke wrote:A reasonable likelihood is that one has a high pitch slide and the other one is outfitted with a low pitch slide.

Ah. Of course. That makes sense. Didn't think of high pitch. (Obviously)

I want one of those so bad...

bloke wrote:A reasonable likelihood is that one has a high pitch slide and the other one is outfitted with a low pitch slide.

That is exactly what they did with their contemporary altos and baritones, and the case had a nice nook (just like the mouthpiece holder) to place the one that you were not using in the horn.

I recently traded Lee Stofer a 1925 Monster Eb for a 1914. Lee and I noticed the differences in manufacturing style while comparing the two instruments. Not long after, I saw pix of a 1917 monster Eb in the for sale section of this board. The 1917 and 1925 both have valve sections and a tuning slide loop made like the bottom picture; the ends of the slides are rolled, and the tuning slide in the leadpipe is shorter. The extra length needed to keep pitch is in the first loop after the valve section.

The first picture looks like my 1914. The tuning slide loop is longer, the ends of the valve tubing and tuning slide tubing are straight (not rolled), and the ferrules are similar (at least what I can see of them). The first loop after the valve section is shorter because of the longer leadpipe. (Even with the differences in age and construction, the 1914 and 1925 are identical in pitch.) This makes me think that Conn made a change in manufacturing techniques sometime between 1914 and 1917. Why is only a matter of conjecture, but I feel that they deliberately shortened the leadpipe and put more length after the valve section to help response and intonation.

Here are the raw brass 1925 and the silver 1914 (after it received the Stofer treatment; it was solid black and beaten up when it came it).



It's fairly easy to see the differences that I mentioned above.

If anyone is looking for a 3-valve Eb monster Conn, Lee still has the raw brass horn. It's not pretty, but it's a solid instrument, has a really nice sound, and plays very well. The valves are extremely smooth and tight; I believe it probably had a valve job somewhere in its more recent history.

KiltieTuba wrote:
No doubt that this was the same with the two Conn grand orchestral tubas

These horns have sequential serial numbers: the heavily tarnished one is 144652, and the one with the short slide is 144653, according to the tuba exchange site.

Revision: Kiltie above and Lew below seem to have it right. I spent a few hours tracking down pictures of old Conns, and in the 1910's and early '20's horns seem to be a hodgepodge of parts and build styles. About the only thing I can find consistent is the moving away from shaped ferrules in small tubing in the mid-late teens. Plain cylindrical ferrules give a better solder joint. Large shaped ferrules for the bows and bell have stuck around, though.

Even on my own horns in the pictures above, I noticed some inconsistencies that totally escaped me before. In the 1914 silver 4-valve Monster Eb, some of the slide tubing ends are rolled, some are straight. Some of the ferrules on the slide tubing are shaped, some are cylindrical. In pictures here and there on the web, some older horns have all rolled tube ends, some have none, some are a mix. Newer ones the same, at least through most of the '20's.

So I'm led to think that Kiltie and Lew are right on the money. The guys on the benches had a supply of premade parts sitting around, and they grabbed whatever was convenient, or whatever matched a builder's style or preferences. And as usual with really old horns, you can't always know what parts have been replaced over the years.

KiltieTuba wrote:At the Jumbo Summit 2010, Andy and I discovered that our jumbos are within ten digits of each other. Both were built in 1925 and likely at side by side workbenches. One would expect that everything would be identical, but there are several differences in them: the bell collar height, the angle of the bell male tenon, and a few others I have forgotten. As Dan said, it was likely due to saving on costs, why make something that might cost more when you can do the same thing and save some in the process.

No doubt that this was the same with the two Conn grand orchestral tubas

I would think that it would cost less to have the parts made the same way using the same tools and then assembled later. This specialization of labor generally was considered to be more efficient, especially in the early 20th century as Taylorism was becoming more popular. I have seen and have some early photo postcards of the Conn factory and you can see rows of parts like braces and tubing of various sizes that appear to have been made assembly line fashion for assembly into finished instruments. In that case one would expect different horns from about the same time to look more similar. On the other hand, some of their instruments may have been of such a small volume that they didn't mass produce the parts and therefore each unit is more like a completely custom product and may vary more significantly from piece to piece. It seems to me that this is a more likely reason for there to be individual variations in certain instruments. It would be interesting to see is there is the same variability in instruments from the same year that were of a higher volume than jumbo sousaphones or grand orchestral tubas would have had.

TUbajohn20J wrote:I want one of those so bad...

Try getting a hold of this guy, it looks like it didn't sell:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0569059986
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0571777752

MartyNeilan wrote:

TUbajohn20J wrote:I want one of those so bad...

Try getting a hold of this guy, it looks like it didn't sell:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0569059986
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0571777752

I've committed to buy that. That's why I'm so interested in these things.

My Schillbrunner is on eBay and I'm hoping most of the money will come from that, but I'm going up to pick this horn up in a week and a half regardless.

Good luck. Please post some detail pix after you get it.

GC wrote:Good luck. Please post some detail pix after you get it.

I'll do it.